Episode 25

Mo' Dead Bodies

Published on: 19th February, 2024

In this episode, host Erika Audrey sits down with Dr. Mo Patel, immunization expert, pediatrician, and recent MBA graduate. Together, they tackle topics like innovation through struggle, the nuanced difference between equity and equality, and navigating the challenges of the news cycle, particulary during an election year.

Dr. Patel shares insights into the importance of humanizing healthcare workers, shedding light on the realities faced by those on the frontline. Join Erika and Dr. Patel for a thought-provoking discussion that spans healthcare, social justice, and the remarkable stories that make us all human- oh yea, and EBOLA!

Transcript
Speaker:

Welcome to Clover club, a podcast about

curious conversations and stories and

2

:

tended to make you laugh and learn.

3

:

I'm your host, Erica.

4

:

And today I'm so excited.

5

:

To have Mo Patel mo is the chief

medical officer for the national

6

:

center for immunizations and

respiratory diseases at the CDC.

7

:

She is also a pediatrician and in

her spare time recently got her MBA.

8

:

, and today we're here to talk to you

about all sorts of interesting things.

9

:

So Mo hi.

10

:

Hi Erica.

11

:

I'm so excited to have you

up here on Clover club.

12

:

Oh, my God.

13

:

I'm like so honored that you asked

me to do this really I'm honored.

14

:

You said yes.

15

:

I feel like with us.

16

:

Like given that we've known each

other for so long that this feels a

17

:

little weird to me, but also true.

18

:

It feels very formal because Mo is

how long have we known each other?

19

:

I moved back to Atlanta in 2010.

20

:

From New York.

21

:

So I feel like I went right to you.

22

:

I'm like, cause a girl

gotta get her hair done.

23

:

That's right.

24

:

So like 13.

25

:

Oh my God.

26

:

Like going on 14 years.

27

:

Yeah.

28

:

It's amazing.

29

:

Yeah.

30

:

Okay.

31

:

I love it.

32

:

I love us.

33

:

I love art.

34

:

It's been a great 14 years.

35

:

, One of the things that one of the

millions of things that I love about

36

:

you Mo is that every time I know that

you're on my schedule, which these days

37

:

is more and more often, which I love.

38

:

Um, Mo is somebody who invites

me to be like my best self.

39

:

Like I know we're going to have a

really deep, interesting, insightful

40

:

conversation about such a range of topics.

41

:

, and I just know I'm going to leave

your appointments, like feeling good.

42

:

And , I feel like we always have some

sort of conversation where for like

43

:

hours or days afterwards, I'm like

still thinking about it, you know?

44

:

, and I think you are somebody who's

willing to like go there and get to

45

:

a conversational level where others

may stop digging type of thing.

46

:

And so I'm kind of excited

to just like document.

47

:

One of these conversations

and share that with people.

48

:

I know.

49

:

So I feel the same about you.

50

:

Lots to learn, even though I feel like

there's actually quite a significant

51

:

age gap between us, is there.

52

:

I maybe at least 10 years.

53

:

No.

54

:

Well in 48.

55

:

Oh, Okay.

56

:

First off.

57

:

I think my brain.

58

:

Stopped accepting you have birthdays.

59

:

Around 38.

60

:

Because you look 28.

61

:

Unfair.

62

:

Keep saying that to me, I love

that But yet we're like kindred

63

:

spirits on so many things.

64

:

There are so much that I feel that I

can talk to you about and get really

65

:

deep about and really candid about.

66

:

And I don't feel like, you know,

as you move through life, Like the

67

:

friend circle starts to get thinner

and thinner because you're just not

68

:

exposed as much to different people.

69

:

It's true.

70

:

And so when you find these

like gems, which I think of

71

:

you as one of my gems, like.

72

:

Then you, you hang on and you keep

exploring and you keep discovering.

73

:

And I don't feel like our

conversations are ever static.

74

:

Oh God, no.

75

:

The opposite of static earlier today.

76

:

Do we want to share,

but earlier today was.

77

:

Um,

78

:

well, I mean, do you want to sing for us?

79

:

Here's what earlier today entailed.

80

:

, we did a whole round of accents from all

over the world and mode one for Indian.

81

:

But you called me a cheater.

82

:

You are a cheater Mo Patel.

83

:

Did I win, but with.

84

:

I think your best accent was Russian

for some random reason, which makes

85

:

me worried that you're like a spy.

86

:

I would be.

87

:

Just watch Oppenheimer.

88

:

So it's a little bit like on my.

89

:

On my frontal lobe.

90

:

I would love to be a spy

I'm super into that type of.

91

:

Uh, do you remember us trying to be

spies at the Atlanta spy association?

92

:

Oh, God.

93

:

Uh, I'm still a member by the way.

94

:

Are you okay?

95

:

Hold on.

96

:

That's a little story we have to tell,

actually, I'm so glad you mentioned that

97

:

because actually I didn't remember that.

98

:

Well, it wasn't front of mind, obviously.

99

:

So one day Mo was here with an

appointment and she was like, Erica.

100

:

Do you care about her VNS syndrome?

101

:

And I was like, actually, yes, I'm

very intrigued by Havana syndrome.

102

:

And you invited me to this

symposium about Havana syndrome.

103

:

And so I decided to go

and then you bailed.

104

:

And so I showed up to like fat John's

catcher in the rock fish store.

105

:

There's like.

106

:

Old white guys in like Oakley,

sunglasses and Tweed blazers standing

107

:

around talking about Havana syndrome.

108

:

And then afterwards the like main.

109

:

Dude for the spy club was like in my

inbox, trying to take me out to coffee.

110

:

IDK why it was the weirdest situation.

111

:

And I was just like, I cannot

believe I'm sitting here alone.

112

:

I'm so sorry that I boiled on you, but.

113

:

This is what spies do.

114

:

We're unpredictable.

115

:

You had more important things to do.

116

:

Other spice stuff, other spice stuff.

117

:

We can't talk about that.

118

:

Can't talk about that.

119

:

Talking about that.

120

:

Also, I feel like regularly

Mo is like Erica saying.

121

:

I mean, I would love to have you

sing right now on this podcast.

122

:

You saying, you told me

you were in the opera.

123

:

I've put some pretty incredible.

124

:

I mean, I didn't actually know

that until quite recently, really.

125

:

, when your best friend Natalie

was getting her hair done.

126

:

Oh, yeah.

127

:

And she didn't know what the fuck.

128

:

I forgot you were here to witness that.

129

:

I was, I was the thing about

Natalie though, is I'm sure I've

130

:

told her and she just has a shitty

memory and it's probably like, man.

131

:

But I mean, The fact is that is I

feel like women that we are sort

132

:

of, I don't, this is probably not

the right word, attract to chemistry

133

:

drawn too often, or multi talented.

134

:

Like this is what I feel like there's

so much polarity when we meet people.

135

:

But then when you actually have that

conversation, you know, there's so many

136

:

layers, so you, you know, your, my, you

you've been working on my hair for a

137

:

very long time as a curly haired girl.

138

:

But yet you're this opera singer.

139

:

You play like four different

instruments, you know, you

140

:

artistic, you're a business woman.

141

:

You're entrepreneur.

142

:

I just feel like there's this

opportunity to elevate res you

143

:

know, be there for other women.

144

:

Yeah.

145

:

And, and, , I don't know.

146

:

Grow.

147

:

Well network.

148

:

Yes.

149

:

Share stories.

150

:

Yes.

151

:

Show people doors, open glass door.

152

:

I mean all that stuff.

153

:

Um, Isn't the glass ceilings.

154

:

Okay.

155

:

Delete that.

156

:

So I don't look stupid.

157

:

Glass windows.

158

:

Those two.

159

:

And open glass, anything?

160

:

Yeah.

161

:

Like a bottle of wine.

162

:

I mean, that's always top priority.

163

:

, yeah, and I think like,

164

:

I am.

165

:

This may resonate with you.

166

:

, as I get older, I'm like quality

over quantity with the people that

167

:

I associate myself with, but I feel

like what you just listed is like

168

:

being drawn to people who have.

169

:

Interest in qualities that are balanced

between their right and left brain.

170

:

Does that resonate with you?

171

:

Yeah, it does.

172

:

And you know, it didn't before, because

you start to, you become really ma

173

:

like you have this like Univision.

174

:

Of what you need to be doing,

what you need to be accomplishing.

175

:

And then as you get older,

you're like, That's not enough.

176

:

At least, I think the women that I like

again drawn to, it's always about the

177

:

better tomorrow than you are today.

178

:

The people that I love to be with the most

are the ones that are growth oriented.

179

:

Right?

180

:

There's a version of,

we can make this better.

181

:

We can make this better for

ourselves or families or communities.

182

:

Whatever else that is, that's a

Gander little bubble within ourself.

183

:

Yes.

184

:

Growth oriented is such

a great way to say that.

185

:

I'm trying to remember the word

that when were you were doing that?

186

:

What's the word for 23 or.

187

:

Yeah, mine is, , generate.

188

:

Generate 2024 for you as

generates, generate what's yours.

189

:

Do you have one?

190

:

Well, you gave me one and I can't remember

now, but it was obviously it resonated.

191

:

Really stuck.

192

:

, so, okay.

193

:

Mo.

194

:

You.

195

:

Are a woman doctor.

196

:

How did you accomplish that?

197

:

Oh, I love this.

198

:

I think I honestly was able to get

to where I am because of my dad.

199

:

Oh, oh yeah.

200

:

Okay.

201

:

He literally is the reason

I am, who I am today.

202

:

And I know lots, maybe lots of

daughters say this about their

203

:

dad and then lots of daughters.

204

:

Don't say that about their dad.

205

:

Yeah.

206

:

But who.

207

:

But I was a total daddy's girl.

208

:

And.

209

:

I think I shared this with you.

210

:

I, you know, my family, we were

undocumented until I was 12.

211

:

Yes.

212

:

And, you know, we came over.

213

:

And we had a visa.

214

:

It wasn't like.

215

:

We came illegally.

216

:

We came legally.

217

:

We just never left.

218

:

Where did you come from?

219

:

, from England.

220

:

Parents are Indian.

221

:

They moved to the UK and then in the late

seventies, my dad came and then , the rest

222

:

of the family came in the early eighties.

223

:

Okay.

224

:

So we moved to, New Jersey,

like many Indians do.

225

:

And then we moved to Florida.

226

:

Oh, I don't want a new, this.

227

:

Oh, really?

228

:

Daytona beach.

229

:

In the eighties, the

height of the HIV epidemic.

230

:

And, , my dad bought a little motor

launch and, , you know, we stayed

231

:

on the motor lodge in a very tiny

little apartment complex, not even

232

:

a complex, it was just a tiny room.

233

:

Yeah.

234

:

And.

235

:

Like Schitt's Creek.

236

:

Kind of like Schitt's Creek.

237

:

Actually, we just had one room.

238

:

That one.

239

:

Wow.

240

:

Okay.

241

:

Yeah.

242

:

Four, five of you for,

for, for, for, okay.

243

:

Because , my sister.

244

:

, didn't live with us.

245

:

We couldn't bring her over.

246

:

So she, I didn't actually meet

my sister really till I was 12.

247

:

Oh, interesting.

248

:

And that was when I became

where my family got residency.

249

:

And this is a whole other

storyline with my dad.

250

:

Loving being a Republican.

251

:

Oh my God.

252

:

Because of, you know, under

, Reagan's administration.

253

:

Um, naturalized everyone that

came to the U S before:

254

:

Okay.

255

:

My dad came in 1979.

256

:

So I actually didn't meet my

sister Raj until she was 12.

257

:

I mean, I met her when I was a baby, but.

258

:

I didn't know her.

259

:

, and she was raised by my grandparents.

260

:

Now, this is not uncommon in Indian

culture to be like, you know, you

261

:

go to the grandparents and you go

to the on and all of that stuff.

262

:

Yeah, but.

263

:

There was four of us in

that little tiny room.

264

:

We went to private school

because my parents wanted

265

:

us to have a good education.

266

:

Yeah.

267

:

And even though we had this one room and

I wouldn't say we were rich, we were.

268

:

I wouldn't say we were poor, but

you live culturally different.

269

:

When you're raised in

like a community setting.

270

:

Yeah.

271

:

Like India, like even wealthy

people in India, like all

272

:

will stay in the same room.

273

:

There's a, there's a family

orientation about the way they

274

:

think about community and.

275

:

You know, I think there's a

lot to learn about how other

276

:

cultures care about each other.

277

:

Sure.

278

:

And how maybe we're.

279

:

Moving away from that in this country,

we've moved so far away from that.

280

:

So tell me what you think about that.

281

:

Why do you say that?

282

:

Because you've traveled a lot.

283

:

Yeah.

284

:

, oh, I mean, I think just like the

contrast of Americans are generally,

285

:

so, , Xclusive not inclusive.

286

:

Right.

287

:

, I mean, you look at the traffic

in Atlanta, for example, and it's

288

:

hundreds of thousands of cars

with one person inside of them.

289

:

, we live very isolated lives and very

independent, and I think that that's.

290

:

I think that's part of living in a

capitalist society is that they

291

:

want people to be kind of isolated

and sad so that you spend money

292

:

to make yourself feel better.

293

:

So, if you can get comfort from

your grandma in the next room,

294

:

you're not going to go spend a

hundred dollars on old navy.com.

295

:

That's what I think about that.

296

:

Wow.

297

:

That's dark.

298

:

Maybe not untrue, but, , I mean,

299

:

the perfect balance is probably

somewhere in the middle, right.

300

:

Where it's like you have a close.

301

:

Connection to family and a sense

of community, but also some

302

:

independence built into it.

303

:

, and I think that you can observe

different cultures who land on

304

:

different parts of that spectrum.

305

:

, I'd be curious to know where the perfect.

306

:

Median is, you know, I mean, do you, have

you experienced that where it's like,

307

:

Developed and progressive and innovative.

308

:

So for me, when, when you talk

about that balance, It's like

309

:

the folks that can look forward.

310

:

Innovation progress.

311

:

You know, building a better society.

312

:

Which means you have to let some

of your traditional things go.

313

:

Absolutely.

314

:

But you still feel that your general

responsibility is beyond your own self?

315

:

I think very few people feel that way.

316

:

Well, I wonder what cultures do that.

317

:

This is a C okay.

318

:

Everybody listening.

319

:

This is the type of stuff that mobile just

like casually asked me while I'm doing

320

:

her hair at like 11:00 AM on a Saturday.

321

:

I'm just like, oh my gosh.

322

:

Like,

323

:

Let's let's get into it.

324

:

Okay.

325

:

, you can't prepare for

a question like that.

326

:

, will you ask it again?

327

:

Well, which culture right now

that you are aware of, because

328

:

again, you've traveled a lot.

329

:

Balances that interest of

progress, innovation growth,

330

:

thinking towards the future.

331

:

With all of the stuff that's

happening right now in terms of our

332

:

environment, in terms of the polarity,

in terms of our political sort of.

333

:

Issues.

334

:

Yeah.

335

:

I'm saying issues.

336

:

Cause I don't, I actually

don't even know what.

337

:

You actually slap on to politics.

338

:

Yes, but then understand clown show.

339

:

Shit show.

340

:

Yeah.

341

:

, but then balance that with those

traditional components of like, you

342

:

know, thousands of years ago, when

you knew you couldn't survive without

343

:

also having that community with your.

344

:

Like those people died, right?

345

:

Like, Those.

346

:

Yeah.

347

:

The Neanderthals and all of those

things that sort of move through like

348

:

human evolution, they didn't survive.

349

:

You needed to have your tribe.

350

:

I don't know if it's, because this is

an area that I've traveled in the most

351

:

extensively, but my initial reaction

to that question is like Scandinavia.

352

:

, like you've got good city centers

with public transportation.

353

:

You've got affordable housing.

354

:

You have environmental stewardship.

355

:

You have, , a focus on education on

healthcare, on kind of those baseline

356

:

things that keeps the population.

357

:

Happy and healthy because that

is the foundation for innovation.

358

:

Right?

359

:

You can't innovate if

you're in survival mode.

360

:

And so I would say, yeah, At least

from the outside looking in, because

361

:

of course I don't live there.

362

:

, that seems to be an area

of the world where they've.

363

:

They're at least attempting to figure out

in a way that, that resonates with me.

364

:

what do you think?

365

:

I guess.

366

:

Scandinavia is a lot of money.

367

:

Yeah.

368

:

And, , I wanna actually.

369

:

Ask that question about the point you

raised around, you can only be innovative.

370

:

When you don't have to be

in constant survival mode.

371

:

And I would offer a different opinion.

372

:

, and this is going to maybe to your,

to your listeners be a little bit.

373

:

Touchy because of what's

going on right now.

374

:

Lean in.

375

:

Let's go.

376

:

Because there was, you know, touches.

377

:

Okay.

378

:

If it's educated, right?

379

:

It's like we need to have stretch

the boundaries of the conversation.

380

:

This is Israel and Palestine.

381

:

Okay.

382

:

So, You know, you have.

383

:

Clear.

384

:

Humanitarian crisis

happening in Palestine.

385

:

Yup.

386

:

, and you know, I, I, you know, this,

that I lived in Israel for a couple of

387

:

years, but this is like in the early two

thousands, it was a very different Israel.

388

:

Sure.

389

:

Back then, and my Israeli

friends are quite leftist.

390

:

, But because they have to survive.

391

:

So let's remove the issue around the

genocide and everything happening.

392

:

I just want your listeners to understand

this is we're not taking this away.

393

:

That there's like actual, what you're

about to say would apply prior to October.

394

:

Well, it would apply

to the Israeli culture.

395

:

Okay.

396

:

But this, I want to remove it

from what's happening right now.

397

:

And the reason is, is because the

Israelis are in survival mode.

398

:

Because of just the

location of where they are.

399

:

And so they have to be innovative.

400

:

And so they've developed,

for example, desalination.

401

:

Processes and methods where

they can cause they don't have

402

:

fresh water going into Israel.

403

:

And so they have methods in

science that can desalinate water.

404

:

They have ways that they irrigate

their crops, where they take sewage

405

:

water, put it back into the desert,

use that sand to sift through.

406

:

That excrement basically.

407

:

And then the irrigation feeds back

in basically waters, the plants.

408

:

And so even though Israel, like.

409

:

You know, Israel, like I

think it rains, maybe one.

410

:

One or two months a year.

411

:

Okay.

412

:

They have amazing vegetables

and amazing food in Israel.

413

:

And they have to, because

it's a survival thing.

414

:

They will not be able to survive if they

can't think of innovative ways to survive.

415

:

So I think there's both, there's

like, there's a version and

416

:

that's the human nature, right?

417

:

It's human nature where you have

survival issues that make you innovate.

418

:

And then you have a basic, , way

of safety that your government

419

:

and your community and everything

is meeting your basic needs.

420

:

Yeah.

421

:

Like Scandinavia.

422

:

Where you can also be innovative

because you have the opportunity

423

:

and the bandwidth to be innovative.

424

:

Yeah.

425

:

And then you have like all the stuff in

the middle where you're like a single mom.

426

:

And do you have three kids

and you're working three jobs.

427

:

How do you get to be innovative and think

beyond your literally your basic needs?

428

:

Yeah, that's what I picture is

just like when you're in that

429

:

super high stress survival mode.

430

:

, and maybe this goes back to a class

thing, but I wonder Scandinavia

431

:

of course has a ton of wealth.

432

:

, there is a lot of wealth in Israel, but

this innovation that you're referring

433

:

to, for example, is that something that.

434

:

Everybody living in Israel

feels inspired by it.

435

:

Or if it's maybe certain

tiers of Israelis.

436

:

That are like.

437

:

Have the, , How do I word that?

438

:

, like access.

439

:

So that innovation.

440

:

So, I mean, I feel like with every

country, so even in Scandinavia

441

:

where you have a very high, like a

threshold for living there, I mean, I

442

:

don't know what their GDP is, but the

Scandinavian countries are very wealthy.

443

:

They have oil.

444

:

Yeah.

445

:

I mean, like, you know, They get

a lot of basic needs met for sure.

446

:

We're there for those

countries and those people.

447

:

, I feel like countries that aren't at that

level, there's absolutely a gradation.

448

:

I mean, even in the United

States where we're like a soap.

449

:

Supposed to be one of the most

developed countries in the world.

450

:

Like our health care

system is for fucking shit.

451

:

It's embarrassing.

452

:

Yeah.

453

:

It's embarrassing.

454

:

And you know, for me working

for CDC and seeing the sort of.

455

:

The lack of coordination and the lack

of it's all these siloed systems.

456

:

Yeah, we're trying to protect Americans,

keep them safe, keep them healthy.

457

:

How do you do that?

458

:

I mean to me as somebody who isn't

working closely to it immediately, I'm

459

:

like you have to untangle for profit.

460

:

Organizations and systems

in basic human needs.

461

:

But what do you, uh, you probably,

I mean, you could speak to that

462

:

more highly than I can for sure.

463

:

I mean, I'm.

464

:

You know, While I absolutely believe

in there's a basic line that we have to

465

:

serve our communities and our people.

466

:

And that the government

should step in for that.

467

:

, I also believe in capitalism.

468

:

Because I think capitalism

drives innovation.

469

:

Now, I'm not saying capitalism

in like money greedy way.

470

:

But I mean, so much data shows that

if you drive capitalism in a way so

471

:

that, so basically not having like,

oh, too many government subsidies.

472

:

When you have too many government

subsidies, like some countries do.

473

:

You become complacent.

474

:

Yeah.

475

:

You need to have that competition.

476

:

I mean, this is, this is me being

my, my business school stuff

477

:

where I wasn't convinced of this

before I went to business school.

478

:

After business school, I'm like,

yeah, there's actually evidence

479

:

and data and statistics that show

that you need to have competition.

480

:

And competition drives innovation.

481

:

Absolutely.

482

:

I totally agree with that.

483

:

And it's something that I struggle with

a lot, obviously I believe in capitalism,

484

:

I am a business owner, , and I love it.

485

:

And I love that.

486

:

I have the ability to have chosen a career

path where I've made it away from myself.

487

:

That isn't something that.

488

:

Is on the list of options when you're

in high school about to graduate.

489

:

Right.

490

:

, but I also really struggle with

where my role , as a small business

491

:

owner fits in to the grander scheme.

492

:

And so there's a lot of.

493

:

Things that are important to me.

494

:

Like, , I mean environmental

stuff, and it's like, how

495

:

do you have an online store?

496

:

And, uh, like I'm adding to the problem.

497

:

, I'm shipping things.

498

:

I'm which uses shipping materials.

499

:

And we try to use.

500

:

Recycled and mindfully created

shipping resources or reuse things for

501

:

example, but those costs so much more.

502

:

And then I'm a small business

with really small margins.

503

:

And then I'm like, why am I

fucking feeling bad about this?

504

:

When Amazon has 4 million trucks

out on the road every hour, and

505

:

then it's like the illusion that I

could do things differently or make

506

:

a difference feels, , I don't know.

507

:

I struggle with it a lot about.

508

:

Yeah.

509

:

Like where you, where I

can fit into that wall.

510

:

Not negotiating my values.

511

:

Yeah.

512

:

Yeah.

513

:

I feel like a lot of

people are in that space.

514

:

And I, you know, I don't know, I don't

know what the right answer is, but I

515

:

do think that there's absolute value in

capitalism and there's absolute value in

516

:

making sure that services are provided so

that we are meeting basic human needs and

517

:

maybe even more, and that's not equality.

518

:

Right?

519

:

That's the difference

between equality and equity.

520

:

At some communities, some people

are going to need more support.

521

:

Then others.

522

:

Yes.

523

:

And I feel like as a country, it's so

focused on equality and not equity.

524

:

Yes.

525

:

And, but when, when you talk

to people and you say, Wow.

526

:

Um, I feel really bad for that.

527

:

Again, that single mom, that's

working three jobs and she has three

528

:

kids and she's barely making ends

meet people, want to donate to her.

529

:

Right.

530

:

But they don't want to donate

to the systems issue or solve

531

:

the . System's problem that are

like letting her having to do that.

532

:

Sure and in any way.

533

:

So I think that there's.

534

:

This concept that you're saying of

like capitalism and yet this, almost

535

:

internal consternation that people

are having around being a good person.

536

:

Yeah.

537

:

Good.

538

:

Service like a community member, but

then also understanding what they

539

:

are your needs are for your business.

540

:

It's not easy to, to, to actually solve.

541

:

And I think that's introspection

that each individual probably

542

:

needs to do for themselves.

543

:

Oh, I think that if you polled the

average American and asked them to

544

:

describe the difference between equity

and equality, they wouldn't be able to,

545

:

, and immediately my mind goes to you.

546

:

I'm sure you've seen that image of

it's like a cartoon of three people

547

:

standing at a fence watching a race.

548

:

Oh, yeah.

549

:

Like there's a short person and a tall

person and a medium height person.

550

:

And it's like, when you put them

all on the same size, apple crate.

551

:

Nothing has changed, but if you give

the shorter person, the tallest apple

552

:

crate and the tallest person, maybe

doesn't need an apple crate, you know,

553

:

and then, then it's like, ah, equity.

554

:

That makes sense.

555

:

That's equity.

556

:

That's equity.

557

:

That is equity.

558

:

Equality.

559

:

Is everybody having the same?

560

:

Nobody walks and nobody needs it.

561

:

Makes sense.

562

:

Nobody needs the $250

check from, you know, Kemp.

563

:

Right.

564

:

Like, because he had extra

money in his taxes, like.

565

:

I mean, I was, I would love 250

extra dollars, but like, I also

566

:

feel like that single mom working

three jobs, that's three kids.

567

:

I'm happy to give her my tuner.

568

:

I mean dollar cheque.

569

:

Now I'm not saying again, this is,

this is me saying my perspective.

570

:

I'm not saying everyone needs

to have this perspective.

571

:

I just hope that there's more

grace as we talk about these kinds

572

:

of things, because that's, to me

what's missing in the conversation.

573

:

It's.

574

:

It's very absent in the

conversation and it's very easy.

575

:

I think for people to, uh, Chew on a

preordained list of talking points from

576

:

their air quotes, political side, you

know, like you've, you've picked your,

577

:

your Jersey on the, on the national scale.

578

:

And, uh, there isn't a lot of grace or

even, , interest really in just having

579

:

a chat about how, cause I think that a

lot of people would sit down and at the

580

:

end of the day, agree on a lot of things.

581

:

The disagreement is , How do we get

there, but not that we disagree that

582

:

this is an issue that affects everybody.

583

:

Yeah.

584

:

And I think that there's a lot more

commonality than differences, but the

585

:

powers that be certainly benefit from us,

not feeling that, you know, congruent.

586

:

In these ideologies.

587

:

Yeah.

588

:

Yeah.

589

:

I mean, , then you layer on the

misinformation, the disinformation

590

:

and the bombardment of.

591

:

Maybe other countries, , sort of

motive, you know, motivated to do that,

592

:

especially right now as elections come up.

593

:

So.

594

:

I wonder if there's an,

this is a question for you.

595

:

Is do you feel if you were to say.

596

:

For your peer group.

597

:

The top two to three things that

you would recommend people do.

598

:

As they, you know, it's February

as they move into this year.

599

:

What would those two to three things be.

600

:

We talked about a lot right now.

601

:

So what would, what would you say.

602

:

People should be doing

more, to be more equitable.

603

:

To be.

604

:

More informed about the upcoming issues.

605

:

And that could be equity.

606

:

That could be environment that could be.

607

:

Listen to the price, like watch the

primary, whatever it is, but we're

608

:

heading into a really tricky year

where, I'm not going to get political on

609

:

this cause I am a government official,

but I think that there there's this.

610

:

, disillusionment that's happening.

611

:

Uh, especially in young people right

now , and then there's a version of just

612

:

burn it down and that's also happening.

613

:

And so you're like, how do you

get people to upskill themselves?

614

:

I guess I think that's

such a great question.

615

:

I think the first thing is that

everybody from time to time needs

616

:

to have a check-in with themselves

and say, am I in a silo that I have

617

:

built around myself intentionally?

618

:

Right.

619

:

, I know looking back at.

620

:

2020.

621

:

I.

622

:

Really.

623

:

Um, I want to articulate

this well, um, uh,

624

:

I leaned really hard into, uh,

talking points from one side.

625

:

And, uh, didn't I put my intellect on

the back seat and I let information

626

:

be fed to me without putting my own,

, like, Hey, let me just Google that

627

:

or let me look at a different news

source on that because it's easier.

628

:

Cause it's so much easier.

629

:

Yeah.

630

:

Yes.

631

:

And so I think the most important thing

is having diverse options for where

632

:

you're getting your news and where you're

going to your media and then asking

633

:

yourself, like, I see people who have

really strong opinions about issues that

634

:

don't affect them at all, which I am.

635

:

Entertained by.

636

:

And I think it's like, Hey, do

I know anybody who's actually

637

:

impacted by any of this policy or

this war or this fill in the blank?

638

:

Like, let me just ask them

if we can have a talk.

639

:

, I think so many people are willing

to sit down and have a conversation,

640

:

but they're not going to just put

their feelings and thoughts out

641

:

there, unprovoked, which is okay.

642

:

, but I think like it's really easy.

643

:

I mean, All trans rights, come to mind.

644

:

Um, If you don't know a trans

person, it's probably very easy

645

:

to form an opinion about them.

646

:

That may or may not be fair or correct

based on this little sliver of access

647

:

that you get and your social media.

648

:

, silo.

649

:

, and I would say you need to have trans

friends, or you need to like chat with

650

:

somebody who has a trans family member

and just get that human component to it.

651

:

And also ask yourself why the fuck am

I all riled up about something that

652

:

isn't impacting me or any of my friends?

653

:

Like what a luxury to

be confident in my, my.

654

:

My gender.

655

:

Right.

656

:

, how thankful am I?

657

:

And I have trans friends and I'm very,

I'm very fortunate that for years

658

:

and years and years, I've, I've known

people who've experienced this and

659

:

have gone through, , Transitions and.

660

:

Did I understand it at first.

661

:

Um, do I fully understand it now?

662

:

No, because I am very fortunate that

it's not something that I'm impacted

663

:

by it, but I have so much fucking

empathy for people who are willing to

664

:

say, this is something that impacts me.

665

:

And , I need to live my true expression.

666

:

Who the fuck am I to have

an opinion about that?

667

:

You know what I mean?

668

:

All I want is for these kids to not

get bullied at school, I'm not going to

669

:

make any comments about the Olympics.

670

:

I think that there's a lot of

like hot button facets of that,

671

:

that like don't actually matter

and are so nuanced and niche.

672

:

, and people latch.

673

:

Onto it.

674

:

And so I think just finding, like,

if something makes you, if you get

675

:

that, like, feeling about a topic,

like take a step back and ask

676

:

yourself, why am I having such a

strong, emotional reaction to this?

677

:

I love that.

678

:

I love everything you just

said, like interrogate,

679

:

interrogate, interrogate yourself.

680

:

Yes.

681

:

Interrogate outwardly like find out more

information and stop thinking about.

682

:

I'm just going to come up and just,

this is my decision about this.

683

:

Yeah, because you're so right.

684

:

Transgender use, they have

one of the highest suicide.

685

:

This, that particular population has

one of the highest suicide rates.

686

:

Right.

687

:

These, these kids are killing themselves.

688

:

Because they feel so isolated.

689

:

And so hated.

690

:

And that could be.

691

:

Uh, family members kit.

692

:

Yeah.

693

:

And yet you're okay.

694

:

Being on online, harassing this human.

695

:

Yeah.

696

:

That's so embarrassing

to like, get a life.

697

:

Any adult that has an issue.

698

:

You know what I mean?

699

:

It's just like, are

you fucking kidding me?

700

:

Well, I mean, you know, but yet.

701

:

I'm not, again, some of these

people are going to fight tooth

702

:

and nail for abortion rights.

703

:

Right.

704

:

Like, it's still, like, if you're

worried about someone dying.

705

:

And the fact that there's

death happening in pediatric.

706

:

And like you said, I'm a pediatrician.

707

:

So this is a population

I care very much about.

708

:

Yeah.

709

:

, but we're not willing to like protect

all kids, whatever age they're at.

710

:

There's a little bit of cognitive

dissonance there for me.

711

:

Yeah.

712

:

Oh, I've ventured to say a lot of it.

713

:

, I think too.

714

:

Inherently part of being

ignorant about something.

715

:

Is not realizing that you're

ignorant about it, right.

716

:

, cause if you were aware you would probably

feel differently and I'm positive.

717

:

I have blind spots because everybody does.

718

:

Um, but what I do know is that I

make an effort every day to expose

719

:

myself and, and just try to be a

well-rounded informed human being,

720

:

even if I don't always get it right.

721

:

I think if everybody just tried a little

bit more, the world would be, or at

722

:

least our country would look differently.

723

:

I totally agree.

724

:

And some of that is.

725

:

Like you said earlier, if

you hear something that's

726

:

causing you to like contract.

727

:

Yeah.

728

:

Like you feel affected by that.

729

:

Yeah.

730

:

You should do due diligence

and read the other side.

731

:

Yes.

732

:

And I think, you know, I don't want

to blame every human right now because

733

:

we're being forced fed information

in a way that's like out of control.

734

:

Like not when I was growing up,

this happened and now it's, it's

735

:

almost like this misinformed

demic is out like it is raging.

736

:

And so we have to do our own due

diligence and making sure that.

737

:

We're finding a hot button topic.

738

:

There's obviously another side, otherwise

it wouldn't be a hot button topic.

739

:

Correct.

740

:

And, and inform yourself and take

the time to understand, even if

741

:

it's something you don't believe in.

742

:

Again, I do this because I have.

743

:

You know, half of my family members

are Republicans and libertarians.

744

:

And the other half is not.

745

:

And then my mom is completely neutral.

746

:

And just does whatever my

dad or I tell her to do, but.

747

:

I, you know, I, so I live in just in my

family in that like microcosm of a lot

748

:

of disparate thinking and feelings and

emotions about things like the election.

749

:

And it was very helpful

to hear well, why dad?

750

:

Why do you think that way?

751

:

And then he am asking me, which

is rare because he doesn't ask me.

752

:

Usually I have to.

753

:

Force, feed it back to

why I think a certain way.

754

:

And what's lovely.

755

:

So my family were vegetarians.

756

:

And, um, my dad is very into composting

and gardens and there's, if there's a

757

:

bug in my house, my dad will chase that

fucker with a glass until he captures it.

758

:

So he can let it outside this.

759

:

This is not like guns blazing, Republican.

760

:

Right?

761

:

Right.

762

:

So you were like, why there's

so many layers to humans.

763

:

And if you take the top layer,

because that's just what they

764

:

present on the superficial side.

765

:

You're missing a lot

of the humanity of it.

766

:

Yeah.

767

:

I totally agree with that.

768

:

, and I, and again, I would, I am assuming.

769

:

That anybody listening to this podcast

is also probably like, let me know.

770

:

You know, like, so if we all feel

that way, Is it just that we're being,

771

:

so we're taking the easy path and

just taking the bait on the social

772

:

media misinformation, like, is that

the biggest issue, do you think?

773

:

So I had read an article that

someone said don't do social media.

774

:

They said pick three to four.

775

:

Like, , new sources that

are like legitimate.

776

:

And just read those.

777

:

Yes.

778

:

So you're just reading

objective information.

779

:

Like again, when I was growing up in

the eighties, we didn't have social

780

:

media, we didn't have all this stuff.

781

:

You just watch the six o'clock news.

782

:

And that's like, that sounds

like that's the data you got.

783

:

Yeah.

784

:

But.

785

:

There's probably, I think we're

exposing ourselves like too much

786

:

to multi-channel information.

787

:

That it's just superficial understanding

of a lot of different issues, instead

788

:

of saying verified and verified and all

that versus saying like proactively,

789

:

I want to focus on these five

things because that's what my value.

790

:

Right.

791

:

And so I think about the environment.

792

:

I want to understand the plot.

793

:

You know, what's happening

with the elections.

794

:

I care about the Israeli Palestinian

conflict for me, of course, the world is.

795

:

You know, public health kinds

of things that I want to be on.

796

:

So you pick your couple of

things and then you find your.

797

:

A specific number of sources and

you go deep into those sources.

798

:

So as you're not just reading a headline.

799

:

You're actually researching the work

that you do, and that's probably

800

:

actually going to take less time

than you scrolling through Tik TOK.

801

:

Getting your news.

802

:

Yeah.

803

:

For two hours at night before you

go to bed, that's a good point.

804

:

And that's also the worst time for you

to be scrolling through, any electronic

805

:

device and talking about the news.

806

:

Absolutely, but we all do it.

807

:

So I recently, , on Instagram I followed

like a little over:

808

:

and I was like, this is too many.

809

:

, and there's people in my

feed, they're annoying.

810

:

And I went through and unfollowed I'm down

to like 500 something and there's more,

811

:

I want to unfollow, but I unfollowed,

I think almost every news source, lots

812

:

of celebrities and influencers, people

who make me feel bad about myself or who

813

:

I'm just like, I don't fucking like you.

814

:

, and , I'm just like, I really want to

curate my newsfeed to be just like, Happy

815

:

and uplifting on social media and keep

social media focused on socializing.

816

:

And then, like you said,

get my news from it.

817

:

Reputable news sources.

818

:

Yeah.

819

:

And you know, and people that you trust.

820

:

So it's like, One of the great

things about you Mo is during

821

:

the pandemic as things evolved.

822

:

I mean, we had several times where

I'm like, can I call you and just

823

:

like, ask you about what should

I do at work with my mask policy?

824

:

Like some people are starting to drop it.

825

:

I don't know if I'm comfortable.

826

:

We're in close quarters.

827

:

Like talk me through academically,

what this looks like.

828

:

, and I, I was so thankful to have a

resource like that because I was so

829

:

much more valuable than anything I

could have Googled, , because you're

830

:

able to give me your opinions and

feedback on my specific situation.

831

:

, and unfortunate to have access to people

like you on that topic, for example.

832

:

, but yeah, , I think it's

really easy to get radicalized

833

:

in every fucking direction.

834

:

And you have to put a

little bit of intellect.

835

:

Behind, uh, why do I feel that way?

836

:

And I think you're totally right.

837

:

Like the topics that make your

nervous system, just go to spike.

838

:

That's worth an exploration

perhaps in therapy.

839

:

It shouldn't be that way.

840

:

You know, Yeah.

841

:

Yeah.

842

:

Aye.

843

:

Aye.

844

:

Aye.

845

:

So that means just having that

awareness, like I feel tight in my chest.

846

:

You know, all of those things that

we just saw, honestly, we're so busy

847

:

and we're tired and all the things

that are happening externally to

848

:

us, and we don't pay attention to.

849

:

Yeah.

850

:

And I'm saying this as a single woman.

851

:

That has time maybe to think through this.

852

:

I mean, I say I have time because I don't

have kids and a husband and all of that.

853

:

Yeah, but.

854

:

The point is is that there are some,

again, it's an equity question.

855

:

I can't all force our mindset on people.

856

:

It's an equal situation

because it's not correct.

857

:

But I want to pull on the thread.

858

:

You were talking about

the pandemic because.

859

:

I feel like, you know, I had this

amazing opportunity to in the beginning

860

:

of the pandemic in January, 2020.

861

:

, I flew out to Seattle to meet the first.

862

:

Case.

863

:

That's so cool.

864

:

It was very cool.

865

:

I was transitioning out.

866

:

There was a CDC assignee, a

person that was out there.

867

:

He's amazing.

868

:

, and he actually went there to

meet the first case, but he needed

869

:

to come back to headquarters.

870

:

And I have, they asked me to go out there.

871

:

I know the Washington department of

health very well, and it's an amazing,

872

:

amazing health department out there.

873

:

They are so innovative, so

thoughtful, but it's home rule.

874

:

So what I mean by that?

875

:

Is that the state of Washington has

certainly like at headquarters and the

876

:

cap, you know, Seattle and all that, their

main public health infrastructure, but

877

:

each of the different counties there have.

878

:

They make their own decisions.

879

:

Okay.

880

:

There.

881

:

So there are certain states

in the U S that do that.

882

:

Other states know it like it is

hierarchical and it goes up, you

883

:

know, the state makes the decision

and it has to trickle down.

884

:

Okay, but here it's a little bit

different, but yet that, that

885

:

particular state works so well.

886

:

So we ended up.

887

:

Going, uh, well, I ended

up going to Washington and

888

:

meeting this, this first case.

889

:

First case that we knew of.

890

:

And he's like this hospital had literally

blocked off like multiple words.

891

:

You have to go through multiple

checkpoints to get to this patient.

892

:

Wow.

893

:

And we were like talking

to him through a phone.

894

:

And he was like the most lovely human

he was so kind to the nurses and it was

895

:

constantly apologetic for like what he was

like making all this like work for people.

896

:

And, you know, you think.

897

:

Like in the news, like

first case came from China.

898

:

It's like China's fault.

899

:

And then you talk to this patient and

he's so humble and he's so thoughtful.

900

:

And, you know, he's, he's

just so generous and gracious

901

:

about the care he was getting.

902

:

Yeah.

903

:

It felt really bad that he was doing this.

904

:

To you know, to the

nurses and all of that.

905

:

Sure.

906

:

And there was this discordance

again, China's bad, but this

907

:

patient is super lovely.

908

:

You know, why do we do that to ourselves?

909

:

Was he a Chinese national.

910

:

Okay.

911

:

So he was a Chinese national,

was he visiting the U S.

912

:

He was here for business.

913

:

Okay.

914

:

And then he came over with

symptomatic and, you know, again,

915

:

this is the first case we diagnosed.

916

:

Like we had thought there was probably

transmission may be happening before.

917

:

I can confirm that because I have

this mystery illness and December,

918

:

2019, that in hindsight was.

919

:

I don't know if it came to Atlanta

that early, because it was hitting

920

:

like the hubs that were, I mean,

maybe you, you don't know there was.

921

:

We didn't have the surveillance

in place to be able to detect it.

922

:

We needed the test to

come out and all of that.

923

:

So, , anyway, it was.

924

:

This is so different

from where we are now.

925

:

It's like mind-boggling right.

926

:

This guy.

927

:

Is . In hospital with like multiple

checkpoints, even get to him.

928

:

And he's in a room.

929

:

We haven't talked to

him through her phone.

930

:

When you go into the room, you are

full on protective equipment, like

931

:

as if it's an, any bowl award.

932

:

And now look at us.

933

:

Yeah, I have COVID I might, I'm just

going to go hang out at the bar, you know?

934

:

Yeah.

935

:

And.

936

:

I'm not being judgemental

about this at all.

937

:

And my point is that.

938

:

We've changed our situation of change.

939

:

The virus actually hasn't changed.

940

:

Yeah.

941

:

It keeps evolving.

942

:

It's still COVID you know, all

of that what's changed is us.

943

:

Yeah.

944

:

Our comprehension.

945

:

Our understanding of what's happening

with the virus, but also our immunity.

946

:

When this virus came.

947

:

Nobody had immunity.

948

:

So this virus was able to whip

through the globe super fast.

949

:

Nobody had literally an immune

cell against this virus.

950

:

Yeah.

951

:

Now more than 95% of humans do.

952

:

Right.

953

:

So we're just in a very different place.

954

:

And it's exciting that we've gotten here.

955

:

We got here because of vaccines.

956

:

We got here because of

people getting infected.

957

:

You know, it's just a different

place that we are right now.

958

:

Absolutely.

959

:

Thank goodness.

960

:

Thank goodness.

961

:

, we're tired.

962

:

I'm sure.

963

:

But it is so interesting.

964

:

The contrast between early through

mid:

965

:

, and I had a guest on a

couple of episodes ago.

966

:

Her husband got COVID in March, 2020, and

he ended up, I mean, I think it was like

967

:

140 something days of being ill, multiple.

968

:

, lung collapses, surgeries, ICU visits,

but she was saying like, it was in that

969

:

stage where we were wiping down our

groceries and like, she could only drop

970

:

him off in front of the emergency room.

971

:

And then people were in full hazmat.

972

:

They're like, can we

even touch this person?

973

:

Um, and the, the contrast between

that and now is just out of control.

974

:

Like I was at a concert last

night and I mean, I saw one or

975

:

two people wearing masks in my,

and now, which I think is good.

976

:

And I'm sure you agree.

977

:

Like, I think if people are either.

978

:

I have a co-morbidity or they

know they're not feeling well

979

:

or whatever, there's less shame.

980

:

And it's just like, oh,

I'm just gonna wear a mask.

981

:

And it's like, literally fine.

982

:

And I don't think people give a fuck.

983

:

, or they shouldn't give a fuck

because it doesn't affect them.

984

:

, so I love seeing that understanding also.

985

:

Yeah.

986

:

I feel like there could be

maybe even more understanding.

987

:

Honestly, where.

988

:

People have, you know, it's that balance

again, that yin and yang around, you

989

:

know, sort of, , agency is one of

my mentors used to call it like the

990

:

individual autonomy to like, again,

that concept we talked about earlier

991

:

about protecting your community.

992

:

Yes.

993

:

And being like, actually thoughtful

about not wanting to spread a

994

:

disease to a cancer patient.

995

:

Correct.

996

:

Because you don't know

that patient has cancer.

997

:

Yes.

998

:

And so.

999

:

If you want to wear a mask, my dad.

:

00:43:11,107 --> 00:43:12,577

Uh, get a Republican.

:

00:43:12,937 --> 00:43:16,087

Like a staunch Republican never

leaves the house without a mask.

:

00:43:16,117 --> 00:43:16,177

Yeah.

:

00:43:16,357 --> 00:43:17,347

Still to this day to.

:

00:43:17,767 --> 00:43:21,817

Yeah, because my dad he's

84 and he has asthma.

:

00:43:22,207 --> 00:43:28,537

And whenever he gets sick, it throws

him into like, Like an entire flair.

:

00:43:28,627 --> 00:43:31,867

He gets pneumonia, get sinusitis,

and they used to go on all the things

:

00:43:32,317 --> 00:43:37,747

and, you know, he knows for himself,

like masks has been his, his savior.

:

00:43:38,077 --> 00:43:41,317

So an 84 year old man with asthma.

:

00:43:41,587 --> 00:43:45,757

Once to wear a mask, a little more

a mask, we should not be shaming.

:

00:43:45,817 --> 00:43:49,117

Other people that want to take care

of themselves in different ways.

:

00:43:49,237 --> 00:43:52,987

And in exchange, taking care of you

because they're not, you know what I mean?

:

00:43:52,987 --> 00:43:55,267

Like when I sit next to somebody on a

plane wearing a mask, I'm like, fuck.

:

00:43:55,297 --> 00:43:55,987

Yeah, yeah.

:

00:43:56,467 --> 00:43:57,247

I wear a mask on the plane.

:

00:43:57,547 --> 00:44:01,027

I don't wear a mask generally everywhere

else, but I wear, still learn on a plane.

:

00:44:01,057 --> 00:44:01,567

Yeah.

:

00:44:01,807 --> 00:44:02,587

Too close to me.

:

00:44:03,277 --> 00:44:06,427

, there's good ventilation on

planes now with HVAC systems and

:

00:44:06,427 --> 00:44:09,697

all that, but I still, yeah, I'm

still pretty careful on flights.

:

00:44:09,967 --> 00:44:11,407

I remember getting into it with somebody.

:

00:44:11,437 --> 00:44:16,717

I was I'm close with kind of early

pandemic and explaining exactly what

:

00:44:16,717 --> 00:44:20,047

you just said of being like, even if you

don't care about this, or you're convinced

:

00:44:20,047 --> 00:44:23,107

that for some fucking reason, you're not

going to get sick, or if you do get sick,

:

00:44:23,107 --> 00:44:24,487

you're not going to be hospitalized.

:

00:44:25,057 --> 00:44:30,007

Just being mindful of the fact that

you live in a community and that your

:

00:44:30,007 --> 00:44:32,797

actions potentially impact other people.

:

00:44:33,007 --> 00:44:38,347

It doesn't make sense to me why people

got so inflamed over the request to

:

00:44:38,407 --> 00:44:42,067

try to keep themselves and others

safe, because that was the essence

:

00:44:42,067 --> 00:44:45,487

of the mask mandate was let's just

try to help each other and whether

:

00:44:45,487 --> 00:44:47,197

or not you think masks work or not.

:

00:44:47,867 --> 00:44:48,317

Okay.

:

00:44:48,377 --> 00:44:49,577

Are you a fucking scientist?

:

00:44:49,757 --> 00:44:54,257

Like I, the number of people I argued

with who have zero training or background

:

00:44:54,287 --> 00:44:59,267

in infectious disease or any of

this, but have such strong opinions.

:

00:44:59,477 --> 00:45:00,947

I mean, I wanted to pull my hair out.

:

00:45:01,307 --> 00:45:03,827

And, uh, we see that response.

:

00:45:04,247 --> 00:45:05,297

Across so many topics.

:

00:45:05,297 --> 00:45:07,187

This one was just incredibly important.

:

00:45:07,547 --> 00:45:07,847

Yeah.

:

00:45:08,687 --> 00:45:13,817

So I do want to make one

clarification because CDC does not.

:

00:45:14,237 --> 00:45:15,557

Issue mask mandates.

:

00:45:15,587 --> 00:45:19,637

They there's very narrow areas

that they do like travel.

:

00:45:19,667 --> 00:45:19,997

Yeah.

:

00:45:20,327 --> 00:45:24,467

But we actually don't have

, regulatory authority to issue mass

:

00:45:24,467 --> 00:45:27,257

mandates, like at a state level

that, that comes from the state.

:

00:45:27,287 --> 00:45:27,677

Right.

:

00:45:27,827 --> 00:45:31,327

But you know, to your point,

it's like, Absolutely.

:

00:45:31,357 --> 00:45:36,457

Like, why is it so inflammatory

and goes back to that question?

:

00:45:36,457 --> 00:45:38,857

Are you taking away my individual rights?

:

00:45:39,667 --> 00:45:40,417

Or.

:

00:45:41,107 --> 00:45:43,927

Are you helping me protect a community?

:

00:45:44,047 --> 00:45:44,647

Right.

:

00:45:44,797 --> 00:45:48,287

And , again, I think

misinformation, disinformation.

:

00:45:48,347 --> 00:45:51,557

You know, information coming

up from unreputable sources.

:

00:45:51,767 --> 00:45:52,937

Makes something.

:

00:45:52,937 --> 00:45:58,067

So to me, generally, quite clear,

which is science public health,

:

00:45:58,067 --> 00:45:59,477

where we're trying to protect humans.

:

00:46:00,107 --> 00:46:03,257

Make it so distorted that

we're no longer considered.

:

00:46:03,767 --> 00:46:05,747

, like a value to society.

:

00:46:06,137 --> 00:46:08,687

Is to me what's the most

concerning, like the.

:

00:46:08,957 --> 00:46:13,127

The lack and trust for public health that

has happened because of the pandemic.

:

00:46:13,607 --> 00:46:16,277

And because of misinformation to

distill information from multiple

:

00:46:16,277 --> 00:46:18,867

sources is so heartbreaking.

:

00:46:18,897 --> 00:46:19,137

Yeah.

:

00:46:19,167 --> 00:46:22,407

It's so heartbreaking to

certainly for me, but so many of

:

00:46:22,407 --> 00:46:24,267

us at that work at the agency.

:

00:46:24,327 --> 00:46:27,297

Yeah, cause we work there to do this work.

:

00:46:27,417 --> 00:46:30,507

I could absolutely not be

working at CDC and making more

:

00:46:30,507 --> 00:46:31,727

money in private practice.

:

00:46:31,757 --> 00:46:32,237

Yeah, sure.

:

00:46:32,747 --> 00:46:35,987

But I'm not saying, you know, I

I'm doing this for the money and.

:

00:46:36,227 --> 00:46:38,057

None of us are really

doing this for the money.

:

00:46:38,507 --> 00:46:39,287

But that passion.

:

00:46:39,857 --> 00:46:43,337

It is the passion of doing

something good for the world

:

00:46:43,337 --> 00:46:44,867

doing something that matters.

:

00:46:45,047 --> 00:46:45,347

Yeah.

:

00:46:45,377 --> 00:46:48,077

But doing it in a scientific

evidence-based way.

:

00:46:48,137 --> 00:46:48,317

Yes.

:

00:46:48,497 --> 00:46:52,007

That that will actually live beyond us.

:

00:46:52,847 --> 00:46:53,357

You know what I mean?

:

00:46:53,357 --> 00:46:56,297

Like the information I'm

doing or all that stuff is.

:

00:46:56,807 --> 00:46:58,307

Should outlive me as a human.

:

00:46:58,787 --> 00:47:00,527

Which is the amazing.

:

00:47:01,197 --> 00:47:05,547

, I remember like every time I would see

or hear something negative about the CDC.

:

00:47:05,757 --> 00:47:06,447

I would think of you.

:

00:47:06,447 --> 00:47:08,307

I would think of my other,

I mean, I'm very fortunate.

:

00:47:08,337 --> 00:47:11,217

I have so many clients that

work at the agency with you.

:

00:47:11,517 --> 00:47:15,867

, and I'm like, man, these are just like

normal people, just like us who are just

:

00:47:15,867 --> 00:47:21,207

going to work in a pandemic, trying to

do their absolute best and just working

:

00:47:21,207 --> 00:47:23,217

with new information as it comes.

:

00:47:23,427 --> 00:47:26,727

But again, I sometimes

will take for granted.

:

00:47:27,687 --> 00:47:30,417

How fortunate I am to have

access to people like you

:

00:47:30,627 --> 00:47:31,917

and that most people don't.

:

00:47:31,917 --> 00:47:35,427

And so it's like when you hear about

the CDC, it's just on a little quick

:

00:47:35,427 --> 00:47:37,917

news clip and maybe it's something.

:

00:47:38,597 --> 00:47:39,497

That's been skewed.

:

00:47:40,547 --> 00:47:40,757

Yeah.

:

00:47:40,787 --> 00:47:41,927

Or sterilized, right?

:

00:47:41,927 --> 00:47:46,287

Like it's just so this like,

, numbers thing, and there's not

:

00:47:46,287 --> 00:47:48,117

a human face behind the work.

:

00:47:48,167 --> 00:47:49,367

That got to that point.

:

00:47:49,457 --> 00:47:49,847

Right.

:

00:47:49,997 --> 00:47:50,477

So.

:

00:47:50,987 --> 00:47:53,687

I think that's probably with

everything when you're trying to

:

00:47:53,687 --> 00:47:57,617

boil it down to the, like the bottom

line that you forget that there's

:

00:47:57,647 --> 00:47:59,747

there's humans there that actually.

:

00:48:00,227 --> 00:48:00,647

Work.

:

00:48:00,677 --> 00:48:04,427

I mean, so during the pandemic,

Lots of my colleagues were working

:

00:48:04,457 --> 00:48:06,797

no more than 12, 15 hours a day.

:

00:48:06,797 --> 00:48:08,687

They, they did not see their kids grow up.

:

00:48:09,137 --> 00:48:12,167

They, they, they beat, you know,

they had their kid and then they

:

00:48:12,167 --> 00:48:13,757

missed out for a year or two.

:

00:48:14,177 --> 00:48:16,727

And that is constant.

:

00:48:16,727 --> 00:48:17,027

Still.

:

00:48:17,027 --> 00:48:19,247

Like people are so burned

out in public health.

:

00:48:19,877 --> 00:48:21,557

And they're quitting.

:

00:48:22,277 --> 00:48:25,127

And I think, you know, that data,

people are quitting healthcare.

:

00:48:25,307 --> 00:48:26,747

They are quitting public health.

:

00:48:27,167 --> 00:48:32,027

'cause they're like, why am I fucking

bothering doing this job anymore?

:

00:48:32,267 --> 00:48:32,747

Where.

:

00:48:32,837 --> 00:48:34,817

I'm not sure I have the passion still.

:

00:48:35,177 --> 00:48:35,807

But I.

:

00:48:36,527 --> 00:48:37,697

Nobody cares about it.

:

00:48:37,727 --> 00:48:39,947

Like no one cares that I'm

doing this job anymore.

:

00:48:39,947 --> 00:48:42,137

So why should I put

myself into this position?

:

00:48:42,317 --> 00:48:42,527

Right.

:

00:48:43,457 --> 00:48:46,907

There are people that have been

threatened physically, mentally

:

00:48:46,937 --> 00:48:49,217

like threatened by external sources.

:

00:48:49,577 --> 00:48:53,297

Because of the work they're doing that

they've had to have, you know, Sort of

:

00:48:53,297 --> 00:48:55,937

police or, you know, outside their homes.

:

00:48:56,297 --> 00:48:59,717

Making sure that no, one's going

to try to shoot them, you know?

:

00:49:00,107 --> 00:49:04,667

It's scary because this is like not

at all what we came into this for.

:

00:49:04,727 --> 00:49:05,087

Yeah.

:

00:49:05,147 --> 00:49:05,897

I've fucking bet.

:

00:49:06,827 --> 00:49:07,397

Oh, my God.

:

00:49:07,487 --> 00:49:07,727

Yeah.

:

00:49:08,057 --> 00:49:12,827

So Mo , speaking of your work in public

health, , you also worked on Ebola.

:

00:49:13,097 --> 00:49:13,457

Mm.

:

00:49:13,787 --> 00:49:18,197

Is that something that maybe has a fun

story or maybe not a fun story, but are

:

00:49:18,197 --> 00:49:20,507

there any interesting stories about that?

:

00:49:20,730 --> 00:49:21,420

Oh, my God.

:

00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:22,140

I.

:

00:49:22,470 --> 00:49:25,170

So, yes, I did deploy

for the Ebola response.

:

00:49:25,170 --> 00:49:27,510

So this is, this is like 10 years ago.

:

00:49:28,110 --> 00:49:29,250

, In:

:

00:49:29,340 --> 00:49:29,910

Okay.

:

00:49:30,870 --> 00:49:32,220

And, or was it:

:

00:49:32,220 --> 00:49:33,210

Was it:

:

00:49:33,210 --> 00:49:33,930

It's probably 20.

:

00:49:33,930 --> 00:49:36,120

It started in:

:

00:49:36,660 --> 00:49:41,970

, the first case during that outbreak

in west Africa was started in Guinea.

:

00:49:42,450 --> 00:49:44,850

But then it spread to the

neighboring countries, specifically

:

00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:46,410

Sierra Leone and Liberia.

:

00:49:46,830 --> 00:49:49,620

And that's where I was

deployed was Liberia.

:

00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:50,070

Okay.

:

00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:52,260

I have to start a little

bit to tell you about,

:

00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:54,750

Liberia at the guard are

actually important to understand.

:

00:49:54,780 --> 00:49:55,140

Okay.

:

00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:59,010

About why this, , outbreak

spread so quickly.

:

00:49:59,010 --> 00:50:00,540

So the first thing is that.

:

00:50:01,350 --> 00:50:03,930

Liberia has 15 different counties.

:

00:50:04,350 --> 00:50:08,880

And most of those counties are like,

I don't know, a hundred to 500,000

:

00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:13,980

people, but Mazzerati county, which is

where the capitalism and Ravya is over

:

00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:15,780

about, you know, about 2 million people.

:

00:50:15,810 --> 00:50:16,170

Okay.

:

00:50:16,860 --> 00:50:19,410

That county is on the water.

:

00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:23,130

It's on the Atlantic ocean and

there's a pretty heavy rainy season.

:

00:50:23,740 --> 00:50:25,360

, from Meda, I think November.

:

00:50:25,420 --> 00:50:25,810

Okay.

:

00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:32,530

So that's actually a very important point

because it makes Monrovia quite swampy.

:

00:50:33,070 --> 00:50:33,460

Okay.

:

00:50:33,460 --> 00:50:38,470

And so again, the first case happened,

uh, for Ebola during that massive outbreak

:

00:50:38,470 --> 00:50:39,880

in Guinea and it starts to spread.

:

00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:43,840

And I think it was March,:

where Liberia saw its first case.

:

00:50:44,470 --> 00:50:50,200

And it spread really quickly like

spread and it spread in months, rando

:

00:50:50,230 --> 00:50:53,140

county in a way that was just untenable.

:

00:50:53,140 --> 00:50:56,290

It was like traumatic bodies

were lining the streets.

:

00:50:56,810 --> 00:50:59,810

The hospitals didn't have enough

capacity to take care of these patients

:

00:50:59,810 --> 00:51:02,150

who were 50 doctors in Liberia.

:

00:51:02,150 --> 00:51:03,620

That meant one doctor five.

:

00:51:03,740 --> 00:51:05,510

Oh, and the whole country.

:

00:51:06,860 --> 00:51:10,100

One doctor per 70,000 librarian.

:

00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:15,680

They did not have the infrastructure

to take care of an Ebola outbreak.

:

00:51:15,710 --> 00:51:19,880

So they obviously have to bring in angios

medicines on frontier was one of the.

:

00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:22,790

They're incredible that

that particular NGO.

:

00:51:23,180 --> 00:51:25,850

Making, you know, short of taking

Cory to tell people what an NGO is.

:

00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:28,560

, non-governmental organization.

:

00:51:30,030 --> 00:51:34,080

, And it's doctors without borders,

they come in, you know, with actually

:

00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:37,830

quite limited funding to do these

kinds of crisis types of things.

:

00:51:37,830 --> 00:51:38,190

Yeah.

:

00:51:38,700 --> 00:51:39,600

Can you, sorry.

:

00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:43,350

Will you briefly explain to

people, like, what is a Bola?

:

00:51:43,380 --> 00:51:44,280

How does it spread?

:

00:51:45,060 --> 00:51:45,570

Yeah.

:

00:51:46,050 --> 00:51:49,060

So Ebola is, , it's, it's a virus.

:

00:51:49,870 --> 00:51:50,830

, I'll start with the symptoms.

:

00:51:50,830 --> 00:51:52,840

I just feel like that's

the easiest to start with.

:

00:51:52,900 --> 00:51:56,740

But the virus that it starts

with, like flu, like symptoms.

:

00:51:57,130 --> 00:51:59,050

So all of us have had the flu before.

:

00:51:59,410 --> 00:52:02,710

Headaches body aches, you know, all

of those fever, all of those kinds

:

00:52:02,710 --> 00:52:07,810

of things, but it progressed quite

rapidly into severe vomiting and severe.

:

00:52:08,350 --> 00:52:08,860

Diarrhea.

:

00:52:09,580 --> 00:52:12,130

And that leads to hypovolemic shock.

:

00:52:12,130 --> 00:52:15,430

So what hypovolemic shock is that

you're so dehydrated you're like

:

00:52:15,850 --> 00:52:17,800

your system's basically collapsed.

:

00:52:17,830 --> 00:52:18,130

Okay.

:

00:52:18,220 --> 00:52:22,900

So one of the big sick treatments for

this is Ivy fluids, but you're in Africa.

:

00:52:23,770 --> 00:52:27,250

You don't have that infrastructure

to do IB fluids and you

:

00:52:27,250 --> 00:52:28,420

certainly don't have money.

:

00:52:28,420 --> 00:52:31,210

You know, all of the doctors to

actually do all of this stuff.

:

00:52:31,210 --> 00:52:31,510

So.

:

00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:34,740

, there's other treatment for it,

but that's the basic one to keep

:

00:52:34,740 --> 00:52:36,780

people alive and that's not there.

:

00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:38,190

So people are dying.

:

00:52:38,370 --> 00:52:39,300

How is it transmitted?

:

00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:40,230

Sorry, you're probably getting there.

:

00:52:40,260 --> 00:52:40,530

I'm sorry.

:

00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:40,830

Yeah.

:

00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:42,360

It's body fluids.

:

00:52:42,420 --> 00:52:42,840

Okay.

:

00:52:42,900 --> 00:52:47,020

And, , so it's like tears

and vomit and diarrhea, like.

:

00:52:47,530 --> 00:52:49,270

Stuff that comes out of your body.

:

00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:50,860

Is how it gets transmitted.

:

00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:51,160

Okay.

:

00:52:51,190 --> 00:52:54,340

But it's a really good question

because the other key point number two.

:

00:52:54,340 --> 00:52:58,630

So the first one is that it's pretty

swampy in Liberia during those

:

00:52:58,630 --> 00:52:59,980

months because of rainy season.

:

00:53:00,460 --> 00:53:01,600

But the second point is.

:

00:53:02,170 --> 00:53:06,370

The the most infectious you

are is right before you die.

:

00:53:06,550 --> 00:53:07,120

Oh, cool.

:

00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:12,880

So the viral load, the amount of

virus in your body goes up and up

:

00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:14,680

and up and up, and then you die.

:

00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:15,280

Okay.

:

00:53:15,580 --> 00:53:19,270

And so this is a second critical

point because dead bodies.

:

00:53:19,570 --> 00:53:21,370

Are highly infectious.

:

00:53:21,430 --> 00:53:26,050

Um, and then you have people

because there's no infrastructure.

:

00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:29,320

There's, you know, the hospitals

can't have, they don't have their like

:

00:53:29,350 --> 00:53:31,000

areas where they keep the dead bodies.

:

00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:32,620

So they're just putting

him out in the streets.

:

00:53:32,620 --> 00:53:34,960

People are dying on the streets

right in front of the hospitals.

:

00:53:35,290 --> 00:53:38,410

So dead bodies are like

piling up in Liberia.

:

00:53:39,100 --> 00:53:44,070

During, , March April, June,

like that sort of mid:

:

00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:45,600

And.

:

00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:46,410

What do you do?

:

00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:48,300

Because there's no place to put that.

:

00:53:49,230 --> 00:53:50,040

Can you burn them?

:

00:53:50,610 --> 00:53:51,420

So that's what they did.

:

00:53:51,540 --> 00:53:51,930

Okay.

:

00:53:52,890 --> 00:53:55,110

But here's , the, the issue is that.

:

00:53:56,130 --> 00:53:57,810

West African culture.

:

00:53:58,350 --> 00:54:02,550

It like having cremation is

like an absolute violation.

:

00:54:02,970 --> 00:54:03,930

Of their culture.

:

00:54:04,020 --> 00:54:04,650

Okay.

:

00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:09,580

So west Africans believe in this

like ultimate paying of respect.

:

00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:11,080

Went to the dead.

:

00:54:11,710 --> 00:54:13,330

And they embalm.

:

00:54:13,750 --> 00:54:16,420

And then for weeks, they'll keep

the body alive where they do a

:

00:54:16,420 --> 00:54:18,190

lot of physical touch to the body.

:

00:54:18,370 --> 00:54:20,650

Combing brushing their teeth.

:

00:54:21,130 --> 00:54:25,210

Letting other relatives come in to

see them and pay their respects.

:

00:54:25,240 --> 00:54:29,800

It's like, it's an important

cultural practice for west Africans.

:

00:54:29,830 --> 00:54:30,220

Okay.

:

00:54:30,340 --> 00:54:32,380

And then they'll do the burial.

:

00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:36,640

And now you're telling them to sever

all those ties through cremation.

:

00:54:37,030 --> 00:54:41,830

Oh, And so it makes sense probably

for people like you and I, that would

:

00:54:41,830 --> 00:54:46,360

probably going to cremate ourselves, but

it does not make sense to west Africa.

:

00:54:46,390 --> 00:54:50,080

So you have a decree that's

made by the president.

:

00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:54,340

Sirleaf in August of:

like, I have an untenable situation.

:

00:54:54,490 --> 00:54:56,110

There's bodies lying in the street.

:

00:54:56,260 --> 00:54:57,800

These bodies are infectious.

:

00:54:57,830 --> 00:54:58,280

Yeah.

:

00:54:58,430 --> 00:55:01,640

And there's nothing we

can do except cremate.

:

00:55:02,270 --> 00:55:04,040

But then you have a cultural society.

:

00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:07,220

That's like, we don't believe, like

you're basically telling me I can

:

00:55:07,220 --> 00:55:08,870

never talk to my ancestors again.

:

00:55:08,900 --> 00:55:10,100

Right, right, right.

:

00:55:10,370 --> 00:55:11,270

So what happens?

:

00:55:11,570 --> 00:55:12,800

People find loopholes.

:

00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:15,170

And they started to do secret burials.

:

00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:15,800

Okay.

:

00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:19,760

So what that is is that they're taking

the bodies illegally across different

:

00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:21,770

areas so that they can bury them.

:

00:55:22,130 --> 00:55:26,540

In different parts of Monrovia and

just avoid the sort of cremation.

:

00:55:26,540 --> 00:55:27,380

And what does that do?

:

00:55:27,380 --> 00:55:31,820

You have secret barrels happening

with Ebola infected bodies that

:

00:55:31,820 --> 00:55:35,330

would set off flares of Ebola

in other parts of the country.

:

00:55:35,330 --> 00:55:37,940

Because they're infected radioactive.

:

00:55:38,420 --> 00:55:40,940

Pretty much a chain reaction, so, wow.

:

00:55:40,970 --> 00:55:41,120

But.

:

00:55:41,180 --> 00:55:45,650

You know, as if it's your dad, what do

you do if it's your grandfather Burnham?

:

00:55:45,950 --> 00:55:47,480

Not to west Africans.

:

00:55:49,340 --> 00:55:52,400

This is that per that POV

situation, like for sure have

:

00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:53,960

to understand the anthropology.

:

00:55:54,350 --> 00:55:56,990

To be able to make the right

recommendations for community.

:

00:55:57,140 --> 00:55:59,360

President Shirley did not have a choice.

:

00:55:59,690 --> 00:56:01,910

There were bodies literally

laying on the street.

:

00:56:01,910 --> 00:56:04,670

Like how many people

passed away during that?

:

00:56:05,190 --> 00:56:08,490

Spike the app, the outbreak epidemic.

:

00:56:08,550 --> 00:56:09,240

Feeble epidemic.

:

00:56:09,340 --> 00:56:12,220

. So it is, it was one of the

biggest, , ever recorded.

:

00:56:12,730 --> 00:56:13,810

And this is just the numbers.

:

00:56:13,810 --> 00:56:18,980

We know, I think it was 30,000

people that were, , got.

:

00:56:19,340 --> 00:56:21,860

That people think that's

quite underestimated.

:

00:56:21,890 --> 00:56:22,430

Yeah.

:

00:56:22,940 --> 00:56:25,190

And about almost half of them died.

:

00:56:25,610 --> 00:56:26,330

Wow.

:

00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:27,200

Right.

:

00:56:27,260 --> 00:56:29,990

Is that the traditional

mortality rate for Ebola?

:

00:56:30,020 --> 00:56:31,730

Is it because they're under resourced?

:

00:56:32,390 --> 00:56:35,570

Well, so generally Bolton only

happens in under resource countries.

:

00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:38,780

So like, think about that as

your baseline, but general to,

:

00:56:38,780 --> 00:56:40,250

we call a case fatality rate.

:

00:56:40,730 --> 00:56:45,620

And that is usually between 25 to 75%.

:

00:56:45,650 --> 00:56:45,920

Wow.

:

00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:46,550

That'd be granted.

:

00:56:46,610 --> 00:56:50,030

But the thing is, is that

this has never happened ever.

:

00:56:50,060 --> 00:56:50,120

This.

:

00:56:50,150 --> 00:56:54,230

This magnitude where it spread so

quickly to many countries before.

:

00:56:54,740 --> 00:56:56,240

And what made this unique?

:

00:56:56,270 --> 00:56:57,290

Oh, I love this question.

:

00:56:57,530 --> 00:57:00,500

Obviously the basic questions, like

they don't have infrastructure,

:

00:57:00,830 --> 00:57:03,580

either a public health

infrastructure, health care systems.

:

00:57:03,580 --> 00:57:03,760

So.

:

00:57:03,850 --> 00:57:07,270

Like, you're not taking able to take

care of the patients the way you need to.

:

00:57:07,750 --> 00:57:13,870

But I think the key things was number one

is that it hit it, moved into urban areas.

:

00:57:14,380 --> 00:57:14,710

Okay.

:

00:57:14,890 --> 00:57:15,490

Lot of people.

:

00:57:15,490 --> 00:57:19,000

So that was the initial point I made

where 2 million people, well, when you

:

00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:23,260

start to get Ebola in crowded areas,

you're going to spread pretty quickly.

:

00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:23,830

Yeah.

:

00:57:23,830 --> 00:57:25,570

I think a second point is that.

:

00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:28,510

The international response was delayed.

:

00:57:28,510 --> 00:57:31,270

So there was a lot of Chris'

criticism against the WHL, and I'm

:

00:57:31,300 --> 00:57:34,660

not going to comment that I actually

am not well-versed in it to know.

:

00:57:34,930 --> 00:57:38,620

You know, what's right and wrong, but

there was, and medicine's on frontier.

:

00:57:38,650 --> 00:57:42,550

The director came up and criticized

international community for not.

:

00:57:43,270 --> 00:57:44,290

Helping earlier.

:

00:57:44,380 --> 00:57:44,920

Okay.

:

00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:47,980

Like international response started

when they started to see it in

:

00:57:47,980 --> 00:57:51,340

other countries, the us had 11

cases of Ebola because of this.

:

00:57:52,060 --> 00:57:55,090

And most of those cases

were in medical workers.

:

00:57:55,090 --> 00:57:58,540

So again, that point number

three with Ebola is that.

:

00:57:59,070 --> 00:58:01,530

The population we're going

to pick one that was most

:

00:58:01,530 --> 00:58:03,360

effected our healthcare workers.

:

00:58:03,870 --> 00:58:06,180

These are the people that

are trying to do a good job.

:

00:58:06,630 --> 00:58:09,900

Trying to make sure that their

patients are protected, but not

:

00:58:09,900 --> 00:58:11,730

bringing it home to their own families.

:

00:58:11,730 --> 00:58:13,410

And this is similar to, to COVID.

:

00:58:13,500 --> 00:58:13,950

Yeah.

:

00:58:14,250 --> 00:58:17,070

Like, you know, the protocols

are pretty much of the same.

:

00:58:17,490 --> 00:58:20,880

Well, it was in the beginning

times, but then renew.

:

00:58:21,180 --> 00:58:24,480

You know, you go to Liberia, it's

like a hundred degree weather.

:

00:58:24,750 --> 00:58:29,070

Like they don't have, they don't have

like the sort of capabilities that we

:

00:58:29,070 --> 00:58:33,750

do for like the S the things you need

to do to make yourself your comfortable.

:

00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:37,770

And it's still not, you know, I,

I can wear an N 95 mask because I

:

00:58:37,770 --> 00:58:39,690

do, I still do when I see patients.

:

00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:39,990

Yeah.

:

00:58:40,270 --> 00:58:42,430

My face gets ripped up when I get home.

:

00:58:43,030 --> 00:58:44,470

Those things are tight on your face.

:

00:58:44,500 --> 00:58:46,600

If you wear it properly,

they fuck with your ears.

:

00:58:46,630 --> 00:58:49,660

Like it's not comfortable, it's not

comfortable, but you know, you'd want

:

00:58:49,660 --> 00:58:53,350

to, you want to protect yourself and you

want to picture when you go home, you're

:

00:58:53,350 --> 00:58:55,120

not spreading that to other people.

:

00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:55,720

Absolutely.

:

00:58:55,930 --> 00:58:58,510

So the urban thing was one

of the main reasons that it

:

00:58:58,510 --> 00:59:00,250

spread so quickly, the LA this.

:

00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:04,000

Sort of slow international response

was another criticism for it.

:

00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:04,390

Okay.

:

00:59:04,390 --> 00:59:09,010

I would give so many people Ebola

if I was in Liberia, because I am so

:

00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:12,160

sweaty, like at a hundred degrees,

I'm just picturing myself like,

:

00:59:14,650 --> 00:59:15,970

I'd be given Ventas Ebola, right.

:

00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:16,420

And left.

:

00:59:17,650 --> 00:59:19,570

I wonder how long you would last though.

:

00:59:20,410 --> 00:59:21,010

Five minutes.

:

00:59:21,010 --> 00:59:22,120

I'd be like, is there a Louis Baton?

:

00:59:24,550 --> 00:59:28,630

Um, I just feel like you'd be a dead body

on the street pretty quickly for sure.

:

00:59:28,660 --> 00:59:30,640

But at least everyone would

be like, you can burn her.

:

00:59:33,970 --> 00:59:37,540

You know, it's so what you raise

is a really important point

:

00:59:37,540 --> 00:59:41,290

because another area there was a

lot of inequity in terms of care.

:

00:59:41,650 --> 00:59:42,430

To bring it back.

:

00:59:42,460 --> 00:59:42,970

Yeah.

:

00:59:43,450 --> 00:59:43,990

And.

:

00:59:44,510 --> 00:59:48,650

ent to Liberia in November of:

:

00:59:48,650 --> 00:59:51,980

So at this point, The cases were

actually starting to come down.

:

00:59:52,820 --> 00:59:54,590

And again, because of the process safe.

:

00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:56,600

Uh, lots of things were happening.

:

00:59:56,600 --> 01:00:00,380

So contact tracing to make sure

like we're containing the virus.

:

01:00:01,130 --> 01:00:05,390

The cremation policy, like multiple things

were happening and you know, medicine's

:

01:00:05,390 --> 01:00:07,010

on frontier taking care of patients.

:

01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:10,130

To make sure patients like

they weren't spreading.

:

01:00:10,220 --> 01:00:10,460

Yeah.

:

01:00:10,850 --> 01:00:11,420

So.

:

01:00:11,940 --> 01:00:15,360

, it started to come down when I was getting

there, but this is always the issue

:

01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:17,250

with the, they call it the last mile.

:

01:00:17,820 --> 01:00:20,220

And the idea of the last mile

is like, you're no longer

:

01:00:20,220 --> 01:00:21,270

at the height of the thing.

:

01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:23,280

Like, it just keeps going.

:

01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:27,180

Like the tail keeps man, you know, it

keeps going and if you don't manage

:

01:00:27,210 --> 01:00:29,700

the tail, it could come back up again.

:

01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:30,030

Okay.

:

01:00:30,030 --> 01:00:30,570

That makes sense.

:

01:00:31,260 --> 01:00:34,260

And so, , when I got there, I

was supposed to do infection

:

01:00:34,290 --> 01:00:36,600

control stuff like training.

:

01:00:36,660 --> 01:00:36,990

Yeah.

:

01:00:37,260 --> 01:00:40,790

But, , I sort of switched roles when I

got there and you just, you know, We're

:

01:00:40,790 --> 01:00:42,920

nimble when we go with CDC deploys.

:

01:00:42,980 --> 01:00:44,000

We just do what we're told.

:

01:00:44,590 --> 01:00:48,690

, and I ended up, , being assigned

to the, the, the safe and dignified

:

01:00:48,690 --> 01:00:51,720

burial team as a CDC sort of assignee.

:

01:00:52,050 --> 01:00:55,380

And what that means is that this

issue with dead bodies like floating

:

01:00:55,410 --> 01:00:59,910

around and dead bodies being a good

indicator of how the outbreak is going.

:

01:01:00,300 --> 01:01:02,820

So my specific role was actually just to.

:

01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:06,640

Actually analyze the data to

be like, is the trend the,

:

01:01:06,730 --> 01:01:08,860

the number of positive people.

:

01:01:09,130 --> 01:01:09,880

Is that coming down?

:

01:01:10,060 --> 01:01:10,450

Yeah.

:

01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:13,480

And it was, which was

really exciting to see.

:

01:01:13,630 --> 01:01:17,710

So despite, you know, trains are coming

down and there's still a lot of secret

:

01:01:17,710 --> 01:01:19,930

barrels happening because people are like,

:

01:01:20,430 --> 01:01:21,750

The trends are coming down.

:

01:01:22,260 --> 01:01:22,950

Where those, sorry.

:

01:01:23,130 --> 01:01:26,250

Were, were people, would you get in

trouble if you were caught for that?

:

01:01:26,250 --> 01:01:27,510

Or was it sort of like a half?

:

01:01:27,510 --> 01:01:31,730

It's not important to get like, go,

like how strict . Was the government.

:

01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:33,890

So they were strict.

:

01:01:34,070 --> 01:01:35,360

If you didn't have money.

:

01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:37,760

Ah, this is the equity issue.

:

01:01:37,850 --> 01:01:38,060

Okay.

:

01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:41,720

So CDC had a test that would

be able to test dead bodies.

:

01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:43,040

It was like a cheek swab.

:

01:01:43,100 --> 01:01:43,610

Okay.

:

01:01:43,700 --> 01:01:44,810

But who had asked you that?

:

01:01:45,110 --> 01:01:45,590

I didn't.

:

01:01:45,590 --> 01:01:47,090

So I didn't do it specifically.

:

01:01:47,330 --> 01:01:50,660

You know, but our CDC is the

one that developed the test.

:

01:01:50,690 --> 01:01:51,080

Okay.

:

01:01:51,110 --> 01:01:55,190

But it's not intended to be

like you Erica have Ebola.

:

01:01:55,220 --> 01:01:59,750

It's a, it was like a population test

to just basically understand the trends.

:

01:01:59,810 --> 01:01:59,990

Okay.

:

01:02:00,350 --> 01:02:04,790

But people started using the test

to be like my uncle who died doesn't

:

01:02:04,790 --> 01:02:06,500

have Ebola because that test.

:

01:02:06,890 --> 01:02:08,180

Uh, it was negative.

:

01:02:08,630 --> 01:02:10,010

Now who gets those tests.

:

01:02:10,370 --> 01:02:11,660

It's not poor people.

:

01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:13,880

It's not people that don't have access.

:

01:02:14,660 --> 01:02:17,300

And so what ended up happening is

that you would have these like,

:

01:02:17,990 --> 01:02:21,050

Like L like massive, like funerals.

:

01:02:21,650 --> 01:02:26,270

Not cremations, but actual burials

happening with rich people that

:

01:02:26,270 --> 01:02:29,120

were in these cemeteries, in these

like burial areas were happening

:

01:02:29,150 --> 01:02:30,410

in the poor parts of town.

:

01:02:30,500 --> 01:02:31,040

Yeah.

:

01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:33,770

And the poor people are sitting

there looking at it and saying, I

:

01:02:33,770 --> 01:02:34,850

don't understand what's going on.

:

01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:36,410

Like, why do they get to Berry?

:

01:02:36,410 --> 01:02:40,940

And my grandfather had to die

through cremation right now.

:

01:02:40,970 --> 01:02:42,830

If you were living

there, what would you do?

:

01:02:43,570 --> 01:02:44,410

If I was living there.

:

01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:44,740

Yeah.

:

01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:50,410

If you were like, didn't have the means

or access and you saw that happening.

:

01:02:50,830 --> 01:02:52,810

With wealthy people having burials.

:

01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:53,290

Yeah.

:

01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:55,990

I mean, I'd be like, fuck

this, if they can do it.

:

01:02:55,990 --> 01:02:57,100

So can I, exactly.

:

01:02:57,160 --> 01:02:57,880

So that's what happened.

:

01:02:57,970 --> 01:03:02,010

And that's the sort of kept launching

the secret burials , that were happening.

:

01:03:02,010 --> 01:03:05,760

So there were smuggling, uh, bodies

happening across center across like you.

:

01:03:06,300 --> 01:03:07,260

The rivers there.

:

01:03:07,980 --> 01:03:11,070

And there was, um, sort of infamous story.

:

01:03:11,460 --> 01:03:11,850

Of.

:

01:03:12,460 --> 01:03:17,290

, a woman who had died in new crew

town, which is one of the very

:

01:03:17,290 --> 01:03:19,210

heavily dense areas of Monrovia.

:

01:03:19,390 --> 01:03:19,630

Okay.

:

01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:24,250

And she actually was the daughter

of one of the tribal leaders.

:

01:03:24,730 --> 01:03:27,100

In another county, like

the neighboring county.

:

01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:30,430

So this is a big deal cause tribal

leaders, again, 15 counties.

:

01:03:30,700 --> 01:03:33,070

Tribal leaders are the ones

that actually run the show.

:

01:03:33,130 --> 01:03:33,610

Okay.

:

01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:37,080

So they, , put lipstick on her.

:

01:03:38,430 --> 01:03:39,900

They put sunglasses on her.

:

01:03:40,050 --> 01:03:41,340

Oh, my God, we got to Bernice.

:

01:03:41,990 --> 01:03:43,730

They put her in a taxi.

:

01:03:44,540 --> 01:03:48,740

And they had two family members

holding her up in the taxi cab.

:

01:03:49,250 --> 01:03:51,620

And completely did a weekend

of already situation.

:

01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:54,380

Ran or across the district,

like the county lines.

:

01:03:54,950 --> 01:03:58,670

And so that she could have

like an actual burial.

:

01:03:59,030 --> 01:04:02,000

Well, she ended up actually

having Ebola because someone sort

:

01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:04,060

of, , tipped off the security guard.

:

01:04:04,450 --> 01:04:08,140

And then one of the NGOs was able

to run and get that cheek swab.

:

01:04:08,350 --> 01:04:08,860

Oh, my God.

:

01:04:09,130 --> 01:04:11,080

There were thousands of

people at that barrel.

:

01:04:11,320 --> 01:04:12,310

Oh,

:

01:04:14,050 --> 01:04:17,650

If you don't understand the

anthropology of your guidance, you

:

01:04:17,650 --> 01:04:18,790

are going to do this kind of stuff.

:

01:04:18,820 --> 01:04:20,110

And this goes back to COVID.

:

01:04:20,380 --> 01:04:21,130

Yeah.

:

01:04:21,190 --> 01:04:24,850

You have to understand what a

community is willing to accept.

:

01:04:26,020 --> 01:04:27,580

And I think.

:

01:04:27,580 --> 01:04:30,640

You know, for CDC, this is

like one of our priorities.

:

01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:33,790

Like we have make guidance because it's

evidence-based, but we want to know,

:

01:04:33,820 --> 01:04:35,920

like, does that resonate with you?

:

01:04:36,430 --> 01:04:38,080

You know, they're not

going to adhere to it.

:

01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:38,950

It doesn't matter.

:

01:04:39,010 --> 01:04:41,800

You can, you can be very pure

about the science, but if it's not

:

01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:42,940

implementable, what are you going to do?

:

01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:44,380

Yeah, absolutely.

:

01:04:45,070 --> 01:04:45,790

Wow.

:

01:04:46,470 --> 01:04:49,680

So when I got there again, it

was, you know, all this stuff

:

01:04:49,740 --> 01:04:53,910

likes to floating around about the

secret burials and this like dis.

:

01:04:54,570 --> 01:04:59,130

Inequity happening between, you know,

the wealthier population of Liberia.

:

01:04:59,700 --> 01:05:01,620

And I.

:

01:05:01,620 --> 01:05:02,850

It was just following along.

:

01:05:02,850 --> 01:05:06,029

Like I was trying to understand the

situation I was connecting with partners

:

01:05:06,029 --> 01:05:10,779

like these amazing Liberians that

are doing everything they can to get

:

01:05:10,779 --> 01:05:12,940

this country out of this outbreak.

:

01:05:13,630 --> 01:05:18,040

And I went on a burial

run with the red cross.

:

01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:19,660

And that was, , the first

time I had done that.

:

01:05:19,900 --> 01:05:20,800

I'd done it a few times.

:

01:05:21,490 --> 01:05:23,590

And there was a man.

:

01:05:23,590 --> 01:05:26,230

He was an elderly man that had a hat.

:

01:05:26,260 --> 01:05:30,640

Basically he was in his boat

and canoe in this little stream

:

01:05:30,700 --> 01:05:32,710

fishing, I guess, down river.

:

01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:37,400

, from this village and he had a heart

attack and died and basically drowned.

:

01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:38,660

So the rug.

:

01:05:38,779 --> 01:05:39,740

And poor, right?

:

01:05:39,740 --> 01:05:45,350

Like, so the red cross came in and

was like, I'm sorry, even though I,

:

01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:47,390

we know, like this was not Ebola.

:

01:05:47,690 --> 01:05:48,860

We're going to have to cremate him.

:

01:05:49,340 --> 01:05:55,250

And I can't like, I still hear

it, this like guttural wailing

:

01:05:55,430 --> 01:05:56,810

from the women in the village.

:

01:05:56,840 --> 01:05:57,380

It's like that.

:

01:05:58,490 --> 01:05:59,540

I don't know if you've heard.

:

01:05:59,570 --> 01:05:59,960

Yeah.

:

01:06:00,020 --> 01:06:05,840

Most African women's it is this guttural

sound that you feel it in your stomach.

:

01:06:06,500 --> 01:06:07,010

That.

:

01:06:07,970 --> 01:06:10,190

As they were fishing him out of there.

:

01:06:10,730 --> 01:06:14,150

Uh, you know, just the fact that,

uh, an elder had died in the village,

:

01:06:14,240 --> 01:06:16,880

but that they were never going to

be able to connect with him again,

:

01:06:16,880 --> 01:06:19,100

because he was going to be cremated.

:

01:06:19,790 --> 01:06:21,680

Why did he have to be cremated?

:

01:06:22,370 --> 01:06:23,330

That was the policy.

:

01:06:23,390 --> 01:06:27,260

So any dead body, even if

it was for sure, not Ebola.

:

01:06:27,980 --> 01:06:30,710

I mean, it was always like the,

did you know, kind of thing.

:

01:06:30,710 --> 01:06:33,470

Cause we never had that individual test.

:

01:06:33,470 --> 01:06:33,830

Right.

:

01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:34,340

Oh, I see.

:

01:06:34,340 --> 01:06:34,610

Okay.

:

01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:34,880

Okay.

:

01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:35,120

Okay.

:

01:06:35,510 --> 01:06:38,779

But it wasn't happening because

wealthier people had access to

:

01:06:38,779 --> 01:06:42,200

the test and were able to somehow

now, you know, circumnavigate

:

01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:44,300

the, the, the, the decree, right.

:

01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:44,930

And.

:

01:06:45,260 --> 01:06:46,220

These folks didn't.

:

01:06:46,730 --> 01:06:53,450

And I was like, So like, uh, I honestly,

I still have trauma from watching that

:

01:06:53,480 --> 01:06:58,730

when it, you know, this could be anyone's

parents that you see this happen to.

:

01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:02,900

And so after that, when it got

really, really visible, like,

:

01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:04,550

I mean, I saw it, I felt it.

:

01:07:04,580 --> 01:07:07,460

I heard it , you know, all

the senses, like come alive.

:

01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:10,040

It became a different story for me.

:

01:07:10,130 --> 01:07:10,460

Yeah.

:

01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:12,160

And, Kind of became a rebel.

:

01:07:12,550 --> 01:07:14,560

And I was like a civil

rights person, even though.

:

01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:18,070

I'm role, I'm supposed

to analyze the data.

:

01:07:18,550 --> 01:07:22,750

And we started to find ways I started to

partner with the international librarian,

:

01:07:22,779 --> 01:07:27,370

red cross global communities, Masaka

follow who's it's giant and Liberia.

:

01:07:27,820 --> 01:07:29,740

To be like, this is no longer.

:

01:07:29,740 --> 01:07:30,220

Okay.

:

01:07:30,310 --> 01:07:30,610

Yeah.

:

01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:34,930

And what it was hinging on,

all of this was $300,000.

:

01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:38,560

Now I just want to be with, put that in

context because the United States spent

:

01:07:38,590 --> 01:07:43,990

over , $30 billion to stop the outbreak,

the Ebola outbreak in west Africa.

:

01:07:44,350 --> 01:07:46,660

This is literally drops in the bucket.

:

01:07:46,750 --> 01:07:47,260

That's nothing.

:

01:07:47,620 --> 01:07:49,840

What that money was for is to buy.

:

01:07:49,870 --> 01:07:53,080

It was a negotiation between

the librarian government and

:

01:07:53,080 --> 01:07:56,320

a tribe to buy a plot of land.

:

01:07:56,740 --> 01:07:58,840

That could be used for a cemetery.

:

01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:01,990

And that cemetery would be

away from the swampy land.

:

01:08:02,590 --> 01:08:05,230

And in a way that was going to

be soup, like they would do the

:

01:08:05,230 --> 01:08:08,540

bleaching and all the things to make

sure Ebola was off the body, but

:

01:08:08,540 --> 01:08:10,490

that people could actually be buried.

:

01:08:10,730 --> 01:08:11,990

It seems like a great compromise.

:

01:08:12,260 --> 01:08:13,610

Why did it take four months?

:

01:08:13,640 --> 01:08:16,550

It took months to get

this negotiation in line.

:

01:08:16,790 --> 01:08:20,000

So, you know, there was this

whole thing of like, I'm like.

:

01:08:20,660 --> 01:08:22,550

Like, you know, talking

to the U S ambassador.

:

01:08:22,550 --> 01:08:25,609

I'm like, if you can't get this

thing, So at this point, I'm like

:

01:08:25,609 --> 01:08:27,529

working on one adrenaline likes.

:

01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:29,149

Like adrenal gland cell.

:

01:08:29,149 --> 01:08:30,890

I was like, so fired up.

:

01:08:31,250 --> 01:08:33,170

I lost like 15 bounds.

:

01:08:33,170 --> 01:08:33,200

Like.

:

01:08:33,620 --> 01:08:34,850

You don't care anymore?

:

01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:35,870

Like what an asshole.

:

01:08:36,319 --> 01:08:37,819

Or you're just like survival.

:

01:08:38,029 --> 01:08:40,309

In survival mode because

they're in survival though.

:

01:08:40,340 --> 01:08:40,790

Right?

:

01:08:41,180 --> 01:08:45,470

And so you're doing what you can to

make that switched, to be like the

:

01:08:45,470 --> 01:08:47,420

advocate for the Liberian people.

:

01:08:47,420 --> 01:08:49,190

That couldn't be their own advocate.

:

01:08:49,700 --> 01:08:50,840

And I'm not just saying it was me.

:

01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:54,830

I mean, I was the dead body

person at my, uh, My predecessor.

:

01:08:55,430 --> 01:08:56,390

It got really dark.

:

01:08:57,170 --> 01:09:01,120

But my predecessor, her nickname

was, , her last name is so they

:

01:09:01,120 --> 01:09:02,470

called her Haber's cadavers.

:

01:09:03,550 --> 01:09:04,600

You kind of have to.

:

01:09:05,529 --> 01:09:07,899

Well, mine was Mo dead bodies.

:

01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:08,620

Oh.

:

01:09:08,740 --> 01:09:09,790

It just, yeah.

:

01:09:09,910 --> 01:09:10,899

It's gallows humor.

:

01:09:11,109 --> 01:09:14,380

Basically I'm here for it, but

you know, you, you do what you

:

01:09:14,380 --> 01:09:16,270

gotta do to get that done and.

:

01:09:16,779 --> 01:09:18,520

Humor into situations like

that too, because there's

:

01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:19,779

no way to survive otherwise.

:

01:09:20,080 --> 01:09:20,590

Yeah.

:

01:09:20,590 --> 01:09:24,670

Like that's the only, you ha you have

to find those little glimmers of yeah.

:

01:09:24,729 --> 01:09:25,120

Yeah.

:

01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:28,750

So the pole, the politics around

it was just, it was so disgusting.

:

01:09:29,450 --> 01:09:33,140

, and just slow and you're like,

My dad, like, you know, you start

:

01:09:33,140 --> 01:09:34,760

to get very personal about it.

:

01:09:34,790 --> 01:09:35,240

Yeah.

:

01:09:35,750 --> 01:09:39,830

So, um, anyway, the goal was to

get the cemetery up and running

:

01:09:39,830 --> 01:09:42,800

so that no one would have to get

cremated unless they wanted to.

:

01:09:42,890 --> 01:09:43,220

Yeah.

:

01:09:43,290 --> 01:09:44,910

, that happened on December 25th.

:

01:09:44,940 --> 01:09:46,620

I had extended like one week, two weeks.

:

01:09:46,620 --> 01:09:47,790

I was supposed to be there for a month.

:

01:09:47,819 --> 01:09:49,410

I ended up for like two months there.

:

01:09:49,410 --> 01:09:49,590

Right.

:

01:09:50,069 --> 01:09:54,000

Um, the cemetery got launched on

the 25th of December Christmas.

:

01:09:54,029 --> 01:09:54,450

Wow.

:

01:09:54,809 --> 01:09:55,890

And I left the next day.

:

01:09:56,010 --> 01:09:56,760

Oh my gosh.

:

01:09:56,790 --> 01:09:58,020

My work is done here.

:

01:09:59,430 --> 01:10:00,300

I felt.

:

01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:03,360

I couldn't leave until

that, that that happened.

:

01:10:03,390 --> 01:10:05,340

And it wasn't for me,

it was the SoCo Fala.

:

01:10:05,970 --> 01:10:06,120

Yeah.

:

01:10:06,330 --> 01:10:09,020

Um, when I, I remember you talking

about him , after you got back

:

01:10:09,020 --> 01:10:10,820

and the impact that he had on you.

:

01:10:11,059 --> 01:10:13,220

Oh, He's so such an incredible human.

:

01:10:13,430 --> 01:10:16,550

When I brought him, I

didn't tell him I was that.

:

01:10:16,610 --> 01:10:17,330

That was done.

:

01:10:17,330 --> 01:10:17,960

He didn't know.

:

01:10:18,440 --> 01:10:19,280

So I'm like Osaka.

:

01:10:19,280 --> 01:10:20,690

It was like a sad Sunday.

:

01:10:20,870 --> 01:10:24,020

I can't remember December 20, it

was December 24th or something.

:

01:10:24,650 --> 01:10:25,190

I was like, miss luck.

:

01:10:25,220 --> 01:10:26,300

I have a surprise for you.

:

01:10:26,809 --> 01:10:27,800

, can I pick you up?

:

01:10:27,860 --> 01:10:29,960

And he didn't know where we

were going now again, he's.

:

01:10:29,960 --> 01:10:31,130

He's from that.

:

01:10:31,190 --> 01:10:31,460

Right.

:

01:10:31,490 --> 01:10:33,350

He is he's Liberian.

:

01:10:33,380 --> 01:10:33,830

Yeah.

:

01:10:33,890 --> 01:10:38,000

And I brought him to the cemetery.

:

01:10:38,090 --> 01:10:40,730

And he like, he's a big

man, like huge couple.

:

01:10:40,910 --> 01:10:41,750

A couple hundred pounds.

:

01:10:42,170 --> 01:10:43,610

Like I felt his knees.

:

01:10:44,450 --> 01:10:45,710

And he started crying.

:

01:10:45,740 --> 01:10:46,400

Oh my God.

:

01:10:46,940 --> 01:10:48,530

Like sobbing.

:

01:10:49,309 --> 01:10:51,170

And I'm crying and he's crying.

:

01:10:51,170 --> 01:10:53,600

Like everyone is crying

because it's ready.

:

01:10:53,630 --> 01:10:57,570

It's ready to finally stop

this issue about equity.

:

01:10:57,900 --> 01:10:59,250

And his Yeah.

:

01:10:59,400 --> 01:11:02,309

And you know, I, um, I don't know.

:

01:11:02,490 --> 01:11:06,450

I just, I will never

forget that image of him.

:

01:11:07,080 --> 01:11:09,120

This big man falling to his knees.

:

01:11:09,570 --> 01:11:10,170

Praying got.

:

01:11:10,230 --> 01:11:12,690

Like, he was like, you

know, lifting up to have it.

:

01:11:12,690 --> 01:11:15,240

I'm not religious, but

like he was lifting up.

:

01:11:15,720 --> 01:11:15,990

Saying.

:

01:11:16,020 --> 01:11:16,380

Thank you.

:

01:11:16,380 --> 01:11:16,680

Thank you.

:

01:11:16,680 --> 01:11:17,190

Thank you.

:

01:11:17,190 --> 01:11:17,490

Like.

:

01:11:18,059 --> 01:11:18,840

It was just like, you've got.

:

01:11:18,900 --> 01:11:19,500

Big milestone.

:

01:11:21,809 --> 01:11:26,280

But you don't, you start to like, You

don't care about what you believe or not.

:

01:11:26,280 --> 01:11:26,550

Right.

:

01:11:26,550 --> 01:11:28,200

It's all about like, what does he believe?

:

01:11:28,200 --> 01:11:30,420

Cause I'm going to believe what

he believes, because he finally

:

01:11:30,420 --> 01:11:35,309

felt that, you know, a major

milestone for, for that country.

:

01:11:35,520 --> 01:11:40,200

Looking back over the expanse

of your career, is that one of

:

01:11:40,200 --> 01:11:43,020

the most profound moments of

like, this is why I do what I do.

:

01:11:43,530 --> 01:11:46,830

I think for me, I mean, there's lots

of things I do that I feel are very

:

01:11:46,830 --> 01:11:50,520

impactful, but I think just personally

for me, it's when I'm in the field.

:

01:11:50,550 --> 01:11:50,880

Yeah.

:

01:11:50,940 --> 01:11:54,920

And when I'm working with other people

that are just . . Like putting themselves

:

01:11:54,920 --> 01:11:56,870

at risk, like Masaka does every day.

:

01:11:57,410 --> 01:12:01,750

And, , understanding how the

community actually solves

:

01:12:01,750 --> 01:12:03,309

problems for their community.

:

01:12:03,370 --> 01:12:03,670

Right?

:

01:12:03,670 --> 01:12:05,450

It pulls you off, , whatever.

:

01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:09,860

Version of you think is up there to make

sure, like, actually what you're saying

:

01:12:09,860 --> 01:12:12,140

at CDC is action to be implementable.

:

01:12:12,170 --> 01:12:12,680

Yeah.

:

01:12:13,430 --> 01:12:14,000

Wow.

:

01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:17,660

I think there's a lot of amazing

takeaways and parallels that

:

01:12:17,660 --> 01:12:20,390

that story can be applied to

:

01:12:20,420 --> 01:12:22,610

I mean, I think the

one thing I would love.

:

01:12:22,610 --> 01:12:27,080

You know, what I think is that I'm just

like one person at CDC that did that.

:

01:12:27,350 --> 01:12:29,120

There's so many of us.

:

01:12:29,570 --> 01:12:32,600

That do this, that puts

themselves at risk.

:

01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:36,110

We have people propelling out

of helicopters into Afghanistan.

:

01:12:36,110 --> 01:12:38,510

, I had one of my colleagues

also in Liberia.

:

01:12:38,809 --> 01:12:41,570

Get chased out of a village,

like with a machete.

:

01:12:42,320 --> 01:12:45,260

, We go into situations where we

don't know what the virus is.

:

01:12:45,260 --> 01:12:46,700

We don't actually know how to control it.

:

01:12:47,270 --> 01:12:49,850

And public health workers , are.

:

01:12:50,360 --> 01:12:53,930

Literally sort of individually putting

themselves at risk all the time.

:

01:12:53,990 --> 01:12:54,320

Yeah.

:

01:12:54,890 --> 01:12:57,500

But I don't think any

of us would change that.

:

01:12:57,559 --> 01:13:03,890

Like, You know, I think we just feel

like not to sit some right thing to do,

:

01:13:03,890 --> 01:13:07,280

but it's like, It's a calling, I guess.

:

01:13:07,400 --> 01:13:08,059

Does that make sense?

:

01:13:08,450 --> 01:13:10,640

It's just about to say, you're

obviously called to do that.

:

01:13:10,700 --> 01:13:11,000

Yeah.

:

01:13:11,059 --> 01:13:14,960

I don't think that there would be another

place that I would feel more satisfied.

:

01:13:14,960 --> 01:13:18,559

Of course, there's things I want to change

at, you know, it's the government, right?

:

01:13:19,010 --> 01:13:20,420

It's not perfect.

:

01:13:20,480 --> 01:13:20,870

Sure.

:

01:13:21,170 --> 01:13:25,100

But the work that I think we do

at the agency, again, not perfect.

:

01:13:25,490 --> 01:13:28,550

There's always room for improvement,

but that's what our individual goals are

:

01:13:28,550 --> 01:13:33,350

growth in being a better version of we

are, you know, tomorrow than we are today.

:

01:13:33,470 --> 01:13:36,140

Yeah, but that fire it's like.

:

01:13:36,710 --> 01:13:42,020

I had a mentor say to this, to me, it is

the fire in our belly to do this work.

:

01:13:42,650 --> 01:13:43,520

And I just don't.

:

01:13:44,030 --> 01:13:47,360

Like any version of this, I

don't really see being different.

:

01:13:47,360 --> 01:13:51,950

And I'm not saying just, just for me,

I'm saying many of us at the agency.

:

01:13:52,309 --> 01:13:53,090

It is a calling.

:

01:13:53,180 --> 01:13:53,660

Yeah.

:

01:13:54,290 --> 01:13:55,850

Oh, that's so beautiful.

:

01:13:56,059 --> 01:13:57,800

Thank you for all of your hard work.

:

01:13:57,800 --> 01:13:59,120

I mean, it's so impressive.

:

01:13:59,120 --> 01:14:01,580

And I can't imagine what the world

would look like if we didn't have

:

01:14:01,580 --> 01:14:05,020

people like you, who . Had that

calling and answered the call.

:

01:14:05,020 --> 01:14:08,950

I mean, I think a lot of people

live their lives, knowing that

:

01:14:08,950 --> 01:14:11,680

there's a phone ringing and

they're like, I can't answer it.

:

01:14:11,920 --> 01:14:15,550

And it's a really beautiful thing

to see what you can create and the

:

01:14:15,550 --> 01:14:17,320

impact that you can have when you do.

:

01:14:17,320 --> 01:14:17,590

Yeah.

:

01:14:18,100 --> 01:14:21,370

Cheers to cheers to my

colleagues in public health.

:

01:14:21,400 --> 01:14:21,880

Yes.

:

01:14:21,910 --> 01:14:22,390

Cheers.

:

01:14:22,780 --> 01:14:23,470

And thank you.

:

01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:25,660

I love you, Erica.

:

01:14:26,110 --> 01:14:26,680

I love you.

:

01:14:27,910 --> 01:14:33,280

. Well, damn Mo this has been

so interesting, so inspiring.

:

01:14:33,550 --> 01:14:37,330

And , if you've listened to this far,

I, I hope that you've enjoyed this

:

01:14:37,330 --> 01:14:40,990

little snippet of somebody who I get

to enjoy so much more frequently.

:

01:14:41,360 --> 01:14:42,290

, I just.

:

01:14:43,340 --> 01:14:45,800

What do you think people's takeaway

should be from this episode?

:

01:14:46,010 --> 01:14:46,520

Hmm.

:

01:14:47,780 --> 01:14:53,120

So, I guess number one is, I think you

said this really articulately where take,

:

01:14:53,480 --> 01:14:55,400

when you're getting information vet it.

:

01:14:56,059 --> 01:15:00,620

You know, like take, do due diligence

to make sure like what you actually are

:

01:15:00,620 --> 01:15:02,570

hearing is really what you should believe.

:

01:15:02,600 --> 01:15:02,930

Yeah.

:

01:15:03,500 --> 01:15:05,120

, maybe number two is.

:

01:15:05,120 --> 01:15:08,780

There is a version, a

balance between agency.

:

01:15:09,260 --> 01:15:15,110

And individual autonomy and taking care

of, you know, outside of yourself and

:

01:15:15,200 --> 01:15:16,940

that might be different for every person.

:

01:15:17,030 --> 01:15:17,390

Yeah.

:

01:15:17,630 --> 01:15:19,220

Like your stage might be different.

:

01:15:19,220 --> 01:15:23,330

I feel like my mom's her state, my, my

mom's stages, her family, like her family.

:

01:15:23,660 --> 01:15:25,400

My stage is a global stage.

:

01:15:25,430 --> 01:15:25,610

Yeah.

:

01:15:26,360 --> 01:15:29,240

Find out what that stage is

for you, but it shouldn't just

:

01:15:29,240 --> 01:15:31,040

be you on the stage, I guess.

:

01:15:32,540 --> 01:15:33,500

I love that.

:

01:15:34,190 --> 01:15:36,470

Well, but so yes, who's on stage.

:

01:15:36,470 --> 01:15:36,710

Who else?

:

01:15:36,980 --> 01:15:39,680

On stage that you are going

to make sure it's okay.

:

01:15:39,740 --> 01:15:40,220

Yes.

:

01:15:40,430 --> 01:15:42,140

And if your answer is just

you, you're the problem.

:

01:15:43,730 --> 01:15:46,640

No, just think more, think, think broader.

:

01:15:50,120 --> 01:15:53,330

And watch, , into the wild maybe

and realize like you can't just

:

01:15:53,330 --> 01:15:56,720

be on the stage by yourself,

unhappy life, if you do.

:

01:15:56,930 --> 01:15:57,380

Yeah.

:

01:15:57,500 --> 01:15:58,070

Oh, that's really.

:

01:15:58,130 --> 01:15:59,000

Those barriers, man.

:

01:15:59,570 --> 01:16:01,220

Don't eat those berries every time.

:

01:16:03,920 --> 01:16:04,400

I love it.

:

01:16:04,700 --> 01:16:07,220

Well, Mo thank you so much for your time.

:

01:16:07,250 --> 01:16:11,960

Thank you so much for your, Canda does

sharing of interesting information

:

01:16:11,960 --> 01:16:15,740

and just your stories and your,

your hard work and perseverance.

:

01:16:15,740 --> 01:16:18,160

It's really inspiring and cool

talking to people like you.

:

01:16:18,190 --> 01:16:21,870

And, I hope that we've done a good

and entertaining job of kind of

:

01:16:21,870 --> 01:16:25,470

lifting the veil of public health

and letting people just connect with

:

01:16:25,470 --> 01:16:28,950

an access, just a regular human

being who's just out there trying

:

01:16:28,950 --> 01:16:30,150

to make an impact and do their best.

:

01:16:30,150 --> 01:16:31,320

It's really fucking cool.

:

01:16:31,320 --> 01:16:35,850

And I love that you're making an impact

in your, in whatever stage you are,

:

01:16:35,850 --> 01:16:37,890

which is not just you on that stage.

:

01:16:39,360 --> 01:16:40,350

Despite my best.

:

01:16:43,710 --> 01:16:45,059

Thank you Erica for having me.

:

01:16:45,090 --> 01:16:45,450

Yes.

:

01:16:45,480 --> 01:16:46,620

Thank you so much for your time.

:

01:16:46,780 --> 01:16:49,630

Well, if you've made it this far,

thank you so much again, for listening

:

01:16:49,630 --> 01:16:54,160

to this episode of Clover club,

as always listeners get 10% off.

:

01:16:54,400 --> 01:16:55,480

Mo's refilling my wine glass.

:

01:16:55,690 --> 01:16:57,550

Uh, listeners get 10% off.

:

01:16:58,450 --> 01:17:03,580

At Hawkins and clover.com with

promo code Clover club, all caps.

:

01:17:03,820 --> 01:17:07,330

And you can find us on

Instagram at Clover club pod.

:

01:17:07,630 --> 01:17:11,890

And it's been a while since I've

asked for, , you know, like ratings

:

01:17:11,890 --> 01:17:13,390

or reviews or anything like that.

:

01:17:13,390 --> 01:17:17,380

But if you have enjoyed this episode

or any episodes, , I'd love it.

:

01:17:17,380 --> 01:17:21,309

If you take the two seconds to just

give us little boop rating or one

:

01:17:21,309 --> 01:17:24,430

minute to write a little review, every

single one makes such a difference.

:

01:17:24,650 --> 01:17:25,220

, and yes.

:

01:17:25,250 --> 01:17:26,390

Thank you so much.

:

01:17:26,440 --> 01:17:27,190

, for listening.

:

01:17:27,220 --> 01:17:28,960

Mo thank you again for your time.

:

01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:31,690

And we will hear you next week.

:

01:17:31,870 --> 01:17:32,950

Buh-bye.

:

01:17:33,790 --> 01:17:34,360

Yay.

:

01:17:34,570 --> 01:17:34,930

Cheers.

:

01:17:36,520 --> 01:17:37,090

That was awesome.

:

01:17:38,890 --> 01:17:39,370

Is that okay.

:

01:17:42,309 --> 01:17:43,090

I don't know.

:

01:17:43,240 --> 01:17:44,800

I've got done this ever before.

Next Episode All Episodes Previous Episode
Clover Club Email Opt In

Clover Club Email Opt In

Thank you, you have been subscribed.

Listen for free

Show artwork for Clover Club

About the Podcast

Clover Club
Curious conversations and stories intended to make you laugh and learn.
As a shop owner and hair stylist with an impressive number of stamps on her passport, Erika Audrey has heard or experienced it all. And she's ready to share. These real life conversations and stories will make you laugh, cry, and gasp- sometimes in the same episode! Join Erika Audrey straight from Atlanta gift shop Hawkins & Clover. Welcome to Clover Club.

Thank you-
Theme Song: Nick Pantano of Sound Space https://www.soundspaceatl.com
Branding: Shari Margolin https://sharimargolindesignco.com

Contact-
pod@hawkinsandclover.com

About your host

Profile picture for Erika Audrey

Erika Audrey

Erika Audrey, a luminous presence hailing from the vibrant city of Atlanta, Georgia, is not your ordinary hairstylist and boutique owner. With a zest for life that's as contagious as her laughter, Erika is poised to take the podcasting world by storm as she embarks on her latest venture.

Launching her debut podcast is a natural extension of Erika's multifaceted personality. With an uncanny ability to seamlessly weave humor into her conversations, Erika's laughter-inducing anecdotes and razor-sharp wit are bound to captivate listeners. Her intelligence shines through as she tackles a diverse range of topics, proving that beneath the laughter lies substance and insight.